BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  64 Bit ideas          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Colin B Maharaj Guest Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:03 am    Post subject: 64 Bit ideas Hi all, I have spoke about 64bit coding in the past, well with very my little knowledge on the topic I want to propose the following.... 1. Create some sort of ring0 driver code to get a 64Bit CPU to use INLINE 64 bit code. 2. Let this driver run in 32 bit operating systems like Win2000 or WinXP or maybe even win98/me. That way we do not buy a new O/S and we have native 64 code running in a native 64 bit CPU going around the native 32 bit O/S environment. The thing is that it will operate like the old DOS extenders, remember when there were tons of third party extenders where you can get 16 bit windows or DOS to use the 32 bit processors?. Why can this not happen now? I am sure there must be some creative individual who call start this venture. We need to get out 64bit code snippets to break through the 32bit O/S barrier into the 64 bit CPU and do it's deed. Any comments.... Back to top Bob Gonder Guest Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Bit ideas Colin B Maharaj wrote: Quote: 1. Create some sort of ring0 driver code to get a 64Bit CPU to use INLINE 64 bit code. Why? Can't you add 64bit instructions to your 32bit program? What would this driver do? Run64BitCode( &My64Code ) ? Quote: The thing is that it will operate like the old DOS extenders, remember when there were tons of third party extenders where you can get 16 bit windows or DOS to use the 32 bit processors?. They were not needed, except to get access to more memory. 32 bit data code worked fine in DOS. Quote: Why can this not happen now? Well, here's where we get off-topic (technical). In the DOS days, interrupts ruled, and they saved all the 16bit registers. You could get away with using 32 bit registers because none of the interrupt routines modified the upper 16 bits of those registers. Today with task switching, and register renaming....the task switcher needs to save much more data, and that means larger system blocks, which are created/maintained by the OS. I guess your driver would need to replace the task switcher and Win cpu-initialization code as well as the per-process setup/teardown. Back to top Colin B Maharaj Guest Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Bit ideas Hi Bob thanks for responding. Well you were saying that the I could write inline 64bit code - just go ahead and do it. Quote: Why? Can't you add 64bit instructions to your 32bit program? But then again you said the OS is responsible for task switching, thus can I assume that when task swiitching, win32 pushing all the items on the stack and it will be 32 bit registers and not 64 bit registers. Can I conclude that.....if I call 64 bit code and another app calls 64 bit code then we can corrupt each other's data when switching is going on maybe 'cause the 32 bit OS switching routines are not saving all the 64bit registers. (I hope I am reading you right ??!!??). Bob Gonder wrote: Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Bit ideas At 15:56:47, 12.02.2006, Bob Gonder wrote: Quote: Colin B Maharaj wrote: 1. Create some sort of ring0 driver code to get a 64Bit CPU to use INLINE 64 bit code. Why? Can't you add 64bit instructions to your 32bit program? AFAIK, one can't. A program either runs in 32 bit mode or in 64 bit mode. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://rvelthuis.de/ "There is no sincerer love than the love of food." - George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Bit ideas At 20:14:50, 13.02.2006, Bob Gonder wrote: Quote: Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] wrote: Can't you add 64bit instructions to your 32bit program? AFAIK, one can't. A program either runs in 32 bit mode or in 64 bit mode. Didn't they add a 32/64 bit prefix like they did for 16/32? No. Quote: I remember writing 32 bit code with a 16bit assembler to run in DOS. Yes, that was possible then. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://rvelthuis.de/ "Ask her to wait a moment - I am almost done." -- Carl Friedrich Gauss (1777-1855), while working, when informed that his wife is dying Back to top Bob Gonder Guest Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Bit ideas Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] wrote: Quote: Can't you add 64bit instructions to your 32bit program? AFAIK, one can't. A program either runs in 32 bit mode or in 64 bit mode. Didn't they add a 32/64 bit prefix like they did for 16/32? I remember writing 32 bit code with a 16bit assembler to run in DOS. Back to top Bob Gonder Guest Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 64 Bit ideas Colin B Maharaj wrote: Quote: (I hope I am reading you right ??!!??). Maybe you are, but then again, maybe I wasn't writing right? I beleive you can add 64bit registers to your inline asm code. (Rudy doesn't seem to think that's the case.) I beleive that should work (on 64bit CPU) most of the time, until other people start doing it too. It might not be a good idea yet for production code, but should be fine to test/benchmark the "improvements", or to write 32bit compiled code to run on a 64bit OS. In the DOS says, there wasn't task switching, so no one could step on the upper 16bits. Today that could be a problem. The Intel internals are quite fuzzy to me right now, but my gut says that Windows32 doesn't manage 64bit switches. Still don't know what you thought a ring 0 driver would bring? Back to top Wayne A. King Guest Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:03 am    Post subject: Re: 64 Bit ideas On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:35:23 -0800, Bob Gonder <notbg (AT) notmindspring (DOT) invalid> wrote: Quote: In the DOS says, there wasn't task switching, ... DOS "days"? Which ones? Task *switching* was possible with DOS, from around version 4/5 of MS-DOS and PC-DOS. IIRC, DR-DOS (Open DOS) (vers 7?) included actual multi-tasking capability. Of course, using DesqView under DOS even as far back as vers 3, one could multi-task DOS apps. I spent many an hour downloading files in one (background) DV window while playing Hearts or Cribbage in another, or editing text files, unzipping downloaded files as they arrived, etc. - all on a robust 10mhz Turbo XT with 1 meg of true EMS and MS-DOS 3.3 - circa 1989/90.. -- Wayne A. 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