BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  A twisted relity. Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: A twisted relity. Now we live in a twisted reality. It appears that it is easier to use VCL written in C++ Builder inside VC++ than it is to use it in Delphi. It is easier to use a library written in VC++ inside Delphi or C++ Builder application than to use it inside VC++. It is easier to use a library compiled in Intel C++ compiler in VC++ application than a VC++ compiled library in VC++ application. Isn't it a strange world? Cheers, Boian Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. How did you arrange for a static library written in VC++ to be usable with a Borland compiler? How did you arrange for VC++ to understand and use the VCL's underlying Delphi protocols, class structure and operation and calling conventions? I doubt that you have been able to do either of those, let alone that they are easier. .. Ed Quote: Boian Mitov wrote in message news:4241f70b (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Now we live in a twisted reality. It appears that it is easier to use VCL written in C++ Builder inside VC++ than it is to use it in Delphi. It is easier to use a library written in VC++ inside Delphi or C++ Builder application than to use it inside VC++. It is easier to use a library compiled in Intel C++ compiler in VC++ application than a VC++ compiled library in VC++ application. Isn't it a strange world? Cheers, Boian Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. "Ed Mulroy [TeamB]" <dont_email_me (AT) invalid (DOT) com> wrote Quote: How did you arrange for VC++ to understand and use the VCL's underlying Delphi protocols, class structure and operation and calling conventions? VCL for VC++ http://www.mitov.com/html/vcl_for_vc__.html Gambit Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Hi Ed, I do both! And it is not bad at all! 1. We have developed a COFF->OMF converter that we use. It converts VC++ COFF static libraries into Borland OMF static object files, and you can combine those into libraries or use them in Delphi as we do. Our new version of VideoLab, SignalLab, AudioLab and VisionLab will use directly Intel IPP, and we have sent already few prereleases to some of our customers. This is right. IPP consists of nearly 20000 object files, and we succeeded to convert all of them and link with no problems in BCB5, D5, BCB6, D6, D7 and D2005! We are working to get the public beta later this week if we succeed to finish testing the installations. 2. I am just uploading the Visual C++ version of PlotLab using "VCL for VC++" Level 2 support. VideoLab for VC++ using older version of "VCL for VC++" Level 1 has been out for about a year already. Level 2 support resolves all the calling convention issues by using a parsing tool I have developed. It generates the necessary few lines to rearrange the stack for each call into the Delphi VCL functions. You have to just run the utility on almost any VCL component and it will generate a native C++ proxy for you. Works just great! If Borland does not finally do something to make Delphi accept BCB components, I guess I may have to do something for that as well, as I am losing patience. Yes. Both of those are now as easy as running a single command line utility to generate the necessary files. So yes it is easy, and yes it is twisted. It should not be like that. I really hope that Borland will finally do something in terms of supporting BCB components in Delphi as well as Microsoft doing something to support library development better than the current situation. If you want to see some of the stuff I am talking about, please visit www.mitov.com . I can also send you some of the utilities that are not publicly available yet, if you contact me directly. With best regards, Boian Mitov Ed Mulroy [TeamB] wrote: Quote: How did you arrange for a static library written in VC++ to be usable with a Borland compiler? How did you arrange for VC++ to understand and use the VCL's underlying Delphi protocols, class structure and operation and calling conventions? I doubt that you have been able to do either of those, let alone that they are easier. . Ed Boian Mitov wrote in message news:4241f70b (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Now we live in a twisted reality. It appears that it is easier to use VCL written in C++ Builder inside VC++ than it is to use it in Delphi. It is easier to use a library written in VC++ inside Delphi or C++ Builder application than to use it inside VC++. It is easier to use a library compiled in Intel C++ compiler in VC++ application than a VC++ compiled library in VC++ application. Isn't it a strange world? Cheers, Boian Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Thanks Remy! Boian Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote: Quote: VCL for VC++ http://www.mitov.com/html/vcl_for_vc__.html Gambit Back to top Tamas Demjen Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Ed, he really has a solution: http://mitov.com/html/vcl_for_vc__.html Tom Ed Mulroy [TeamB] wrote: Quote: How did you arrange for a static library written in VC++ to be usable with a Borland compiler? How did you arrange for VC++ to understand and use the VCL's underlying Delphi protocols, class structure and operation and calling conventions? I doubt that you have been able to do either of those, let alone that they are easier. . Ed Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Thanks Tom, And Tom has a solution for porting VCL into WinForms.NET : http://www.tweakbits.com/tfm/ So even more twisted world . Cheers, Boian Tamas Demjen wrote: Quote: Ed, he really has a solution: http://mitov.com/html/vcl_for_vc__.html Tom Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. That confirms what I said. It is not as he claims. His web page documents it. The product DOES NOT allow the VCL to be used with Visual C++. What he has done is to provide translation layers to thunk to VCL packages and limited ability to use some properties. His forum message makes provocative claims about his product, claims that state that it is easier to use the VCL with Visual C++ than with Borland's compiler. Judging from the information on his page, the claim in his post is false. .. Ed Quote: Remy Lebeau wrote in message news:424206f5$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... How did you arrange for VC++ to understand and use the VCL's underlying Delphi protocols, class structure and operation and calling conventions? VCL for VC++ http://www.mitov.com/html/vcl_for_vc__.html Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. I was at Universal Studio the other day and they had the "Terminator" show. So the lines for the corporation making the SkyNet ware something like: "Imagine a world where the butterflies will fly on batteries. Imagine a world where the neurosurgeon will be able to perform a surgery without missing a day at the beach Imagine a world where the mother can take care of her kid from half a world away..." It kind of reminded me of the twisted situation we have . Cheers, Boian P.S. I can even run the BCB on batteries on my notebook Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Quote: 1. We have developed a COFF->OMF converter that we use. It converts VC++ COFF static libraries into Borland OMF static object files, and you can combine those into libraries or use them in Delphi as we do. Our new version of VideoLab, SignalLab, AudioLab and VisionLab will use directly ... Assuming that the static library in the Microsoft COFF format has been converted to a valid Intel standard OMF format such as is used by Borland how is it then usable in a program created with C++ Builder? Conversion between COFF to OMF, reconfiguring the stack on the fly and translating public names handles but a few in a list of issues that must be dealt with to static link a VC++ object file into a C++ Builder program or a Borland object file into a VC++ one. There is a third party tools group on this server which is where people can post messages advertising such tools. If you want to advertise, doing it here in a left-handed way is not appropriate. In your original message you were complaining about Borland and advancing VC++. The wording was in a manner suggestive of a desire to undermine Borland, work against Borland's interests, purportedly but probably not actually in the interests of the people reading this group. The people reading this group are Borland's customers, and I view such people as important and not to be toyed with. Advertise your wares in the third party tools group. .. Ed Quote: Boian Mitov wrote in message news:42420793$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Hi Ed, I do both! And it is not bad at all! 1. We have developed a COFF->OMF converter that we use. It converts VC++ COFF static libraries into Borland OMF static object files, and you can combine those into libraries or use them in Delphi as we do. Our new version of VideoLab, SignalLab, AudioLab and VisionLab will use directly Intel IPP, and we have sent already few prereleases to some of our customers. This is right. IPP consists of nearly 20000 object files, and we succeeded to convert all of them and link with no problems in BCB5, D5, BCB6, D6, D7 and D2005! We are working to get the public beta later this week if we succeed to finish testing the installations. 2. I am just uploading the Visual C++ version of PlotLab using "VCL for VC++" Level 2 support. VideoLab for VC++ using older version of "VCL for VC++" Level 1 has been out for about a year already. Level 2 support resolves all the calling convention issues by using a parsing tool I have developed. It generates the necessary few lines to rearrange the stack for each call into the Delphi VCL functions. You have to just run the utility on almost any VCL component and it will generate a native C++ proxy for you. Works just great! If Borland does not finally do something to make Delphi accept BCB components, I guess I may have to do something for that as well, as I am losing patience. Yes. Both of those are now as easy as running a single command line utility to generate the necessary files. So yes it is easy, and yes it is twisted. It should not be like that. I really hope that Borland will finally do something in terms of supporting BCB components in Delphi as well as Microsoft doing something to support library development better than the current situation. If you want to see some of the stuff I am talking about, please visit www.mitov.com . I can also send you some of the utilities that are not publicly available yet, if you contact me directly. Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Hi Ed, This is not precisely correct. It will natively use the VCL packages compiled in BCB6, and it will allow yo to call any public method inside the package, as well as all published and some public properties. It is as native as it can get. Yes it will allow you to call any VCL function with any number/type of parameters, except variants, and it will work with any VCL including the VCL packages that come with BCB6. I don't see where it contradicts my claims. Please correct me if I have stated something wrong. At least it does much more than what you can do with BCB components from inside Delphi. With best regards, Boian Mitov Ed Mulroy [TeamB] wrote: Quote: That confirms what I said. It is not as he claims. His web page documents it. The product DOES NOT allow the VCL to be used with Visual C++. What he has done is to provide translation layers to thunk to VCL packages and limited ability to use some properties. His forum message makes provocative claims about his product, claims that state that it is easier to use the VCL with Visual C++ than with Borland's compiler. Judging from the information on his page, the claim in his post is false. . Ed Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Hi Ed, Sorry I got too much excited after the VC++ library issues discussion. Kind of frustrated with the issues of both BCB and VC++. I suggest yo cancel this whole thread. I think it was wrong to start from the beginning. My mistake. Please accept my apology, and cancel the thread. With best regards, Boian Mitov Ed Mulroy [TeamB] wrote: Quote: 1. We have developed a COFF->OMF converter that we use. It converts VC++ COFF static libraries into Borland OMF static object files, and you can combine those into libraries or use them in Delphi as we do. Our new version of VideoLab, SignalLab, AudioLab and VisionLab will use directly ... Assuming that the static library in the Microsoft COFF format has been converted to a valid Intel standard OMF format such as is used by Borland how is it then usable in a program created with C++ Builder? Conversion between COFF to OMF, reconfiguring the stack on the fly and translating public names handles but a few in a list of issues that must be dealt with to static link a VC++ object file into a C++ Builder program or a Borland object file into a VC++ one. There is a third party tools group on this server which is where people can post messages advertising such tools. If you want to advertise, doing it here in a left-handed way is not appropriate. In your original message you were complaining about Borland and advancing VC++. The wording was in a manner suggestive of a desire to undermine Borland, work against Borland's interests, purportedly but probably not actually in the interests of the people reading this group. The people reading this group are Borland's customers, and I view such people as important and not to be toyed with. Advertise your wares in the third party tools group. . Ed Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. I have willingly canceled the message where I have posted a link to a product. As it appears that this thread may be touching sensitive group guidelines, I suggest a cancellation of the whole thread. With best regards, Boian Mitov Boian Mitov wrote: Quote: Now we live in a twisted reality. It appears that it is easier to use VCL written in C++ Builder inside VC++ than it is to use it in Delphi. It is easier to use a library written in VC++ inside Delphi or C++ Builder application than to use it inside VC++. It is easier to use a library compiled in Intel C++ compiler in VC++ application than a VC++ compiled library in VC++ application. Isn't it a strange world? Cheers, Boian Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Quote: This is not precisely correct... Yes it IS precisely correct. Your original message said "It appears that it is easier to use VCL written in C++ Builder inside VC++ than it is to use it in Delphi" If you read your own web page you will see that your product does NOT allow VCL to be used inside VC++. Your wording cleverly states C++ Builder then compares to use inside Delphi which makes a technical point that C++ Builder object files are not in general easily used in Delphi. However the message compares C++ Builder to VC++, two C++ platforms and really does not address Delphi in any other way than as a device to make a misleading point. Your new message says: "Yes it will allow you to call any VCL function with any number/type of parameters, except variants, and it will work with any VCL including the VCL packages that come with BCB6" Ok, create C++ Builder code using the VCL working examples of these. Non-trivial examples please. Don't show them to me. I don't need to see them. You need not even tell me about them. Just do it and be very detailed in your debugging to confirm proper operation. - A function in the VCL code in the package which accepts and uses a reference to an instance of a C++ class whose parent has virtual functions, some of which are overridden in the child and all of which are used. As a calling argument pass it a reference to a class instance that was created by the VC++ code. - A function in the VCL code which accepts and uses a std::vector<std::string> & and call it from VC++ code that has created the instance of the vector. Note that I do not present this list as a demonstration of all issues that need to be dealt with. I am neither angry at you nor wish you anything but success. I know your statement in the message which started this thead was not correct. You do not allow VCL code to be used in a VC++ program. You have merely thunked so that an external 'Package', a specialized DLL, can be used by a VC++ program. I also doubt that you have solved all of the interface problems. .. Ed Quote: Boian Mitov wrote in message news:42421114$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Hi Ed, This is not precisely correct. It will natively use the VCL packages compiled in BCB6, and it will allow yo to call any public method inside the package, as well as all published and some public properties. It is as native as it can get. Yes it will allow you to call any VCL function with any number/type of parameters, except variants, and it will work with any VCL including the VCL packages that come with BCB6. I don't see where it contradicts my claims. Please correct me if I have stated something wrong. At least it does much more than what you can do with BCB components from inside Delphi. With best regards, Boian Mitov Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:31 am    Post subject: Re: A twisted relity. Tom, If what he claims in the headlines on his web page is correct then yes, he has a solution. However the solution is not what he claimed here. It does not allow VCL code to be used with VC++. It allows exterenal 'packages', specialized DLL's that contain VCL code, to be used by a VC++ program. It might be that I did not read all of what is on his web site so missed it but, unless one applies draconian restraints on what items can be used as calling parameters and returned items across the VC++ and package function boundaries, I fear that the packages cannnot be used in general by VC++ programs. Note that I am not addressing variants or limitations on use of properties, both of which he documents on his web page and neither of which I view as a serious limitation. That said, what he has accomplished is impressive. .. Ed Quote: Tamas Demjen wrote in message news:42420a5a$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... 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