BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Another view Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Ron Guest Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 7:36 am    Post subject: Another view I feel sorry for all the Borland Team members who are undeservedly putting up with constant battering about timing of letters and whether BCB will become this or that or nothing. I understand that the techos want to provide the best product that they can in the earliest timeframe. I understand that the bean-counters and business managers have to keep the shareholders happy and the bottom line in the black. These two pressures often oppose each other as they obviously do in this case. Generally the techos don't get to win many arguments because they don't hold the purse - so the business case wins. And you can't announce anything without some analyst drawing some conclusion, right or wrong, from it - thus anything you write has to be approved by many 'suits' as well as the legal team and these guys often have different priorities. I have been using Borland products on and off since turbo pascal and have also use most Microsoft environments. I like BCB 6 even though it does have its problems - its definitely the way to go for thick GUI apps using C++. I (like the others here) would like to see a new version that addresses the shortcomings of BCB 6 as I'm sure that the BCB team would as well. However, if it doesn't happen then I guess we migrate to other development environments - no big deal unless your a BCB team member. I liked the Betamax VCR too but didn't loose too much sleep when the world went the way of the VHS. So, my thanks go to the BCB team, good luck, keep up the fight and let me know the outcome - when the 'suits' allow. Ron Back to top Gord Guest Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view Agree with most of what you are saying. However, once I again I would like to put forth that I don't believe that the delay in any sort of announcement is due to legal issues. It appears to me (partly from Robert E's post) that Borland is not sure where they want to go with C++. Therefore it follows quite logically that they can't make any announcement yet. Ron wrote: Quote: I feel sorry for all the Borland Team members who are undeservedly putting up with constant battering about timing of letters and whether BCB will become this or that or nothing. I understand that the techos want to provide the best product that they can in the earliest timeframe. I understand that the bean-counters and business managers have to keep the shareholders happy and the bottom line in the black. These two pressures often oppose each other as they obviously do in this case. Generally the techos don't get to win many arguments because they don't hold the purse - so the business case wins. And you can't announce anything without some analyst drawing some conclusion, right or wrong, from it - thus anything you write has to be approved by many 'suits' as well as the legal team and these guys often have different priorities. I have been using Borland products on and off since turbo pascal and have also use most Microsoft environments. I like BCB 6 even though it does have its problems - its definitely the way to go for thick GUI apps using C++. I (like the others here) would like to see a new version that addresses the shortcomings of BCB 6 as I'm sure that the BCB team would as well. However, if it doesn't happen then I guess we migrate to other development environments - no big deal unless your a BCB team member. I liked the Betamax VCR too but didn't loose too much sleep when the world went the way of the VHS. So, my thanks go to the BCB team, good luck, keep up the fight and let me know the outcome - when the 'suits' allow. Ron Back to top Vladimir Stefanovic Guest Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view Quote: So, my thanks go to the BCB team, good luck, keep up the fight and let me know the outcome - when the 'suits' allow. Ron You think of people on the picture (Borland Easter-Eggs) when you hold CTRL+SHIFT and start BCB6. Is there any 'famous' BCB member from that picture which is well known on these NG ? Just curious... Best regards, Vladimir Stefanovic Back to top Jerry Irons Guest Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view I'm thinking that a real issue is this: Borland accepted that payoff from Microsoft (call it whatever you want), so basically, at that moment, they became business partners. (not equal partners of course, but you get my drift). The VCL win32 is a technology that supports "older" technology. Microsoft would probably like to discourage support of older technology, in order to force people to upgrade to newer operating systems, programs, etc. (and keep the money flowing). Borland has supported and promoted C++ software that directly promotes ..NET stuff. This helps promote Microsoft. (except of course if the product is crappy...) Microsoft does not have any type of pascal compiler package, so Delphi is permitted to grow, provided it supports .NET. Delphi also has a large user base, so providiing support for Delphi brings in cash. Microsoft does have a C++ compiler system, so why support Borland's if it doesn't make money? Anybody who wants C++ will switch to MS, and many who like Borland will switch to Delphi. (since the vcl is based in pascal, after all, and any programmers worth their salt learned object pascal simply by digging into the vcl...) This of course is all conjecture on my part, I'm just stalling before I have to mow some grass. It just looks to me like Borland is now in somewhat of a partnership with Microsoft, instead of directly confronting them like in years past. Once upon a time, I purchased Borland products and said Wow, this is nice! I can't wait to learn more about it! -Jerry Back to top Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view At 19:53:16, 29.05.2004, Jerry Irons wrote: Quote: I'm thinking that a real issue is this: Borland accepted that payoff from Microsoft (call it whatever you want), so basically, at that moment, they became business partners. (not equal partners of course, but you get my drift). MS got some non-voting stock. Quote: This of course is all conjecture on my part, I'm just stalling before I have to mow some grass. Aha! -- Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) "Small minds run in the same gutter." -- Alfred E. Neuman Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view Quote: MS got some non-voting stock. FYI: It was not exactly that. MS purchased preferred stock which, in spite of the name, is not stock at all in the common sense but rather a low grade bond, a bond with lower precedence or priority for payment than normal bonds and which carries no voting rights. .. Ed Quote: Rudy Velthuis wrote in message news:xn0diuvdynigox006-moderator (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Back to top I R T Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: Another view Gord <gp.mail.no.spam (AT) telus (DOT) no.spam.net> writes: Quote: to legal issues. It appears to me (partly from Robert E's post) that Borland is not sure where they want to go with C++. So why would any sane developer tie their future to Borland ? Back to top Palle Meinert Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 12:33 am    Post subject: Re: Another view Quote: It was not exactly that. MS purchased preferred stock which, in spite of the name, is not stock at all in the common sense but rather a low grade bond, a bond with lower precedence or priority for payment than normal bonds and which carries no voting rights. Call it what you want. I think Borlands behaviour does show lack of independence. /palle Back to top Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Another view At 02:33:32, 30.05.2004, Palle Meinert wrote: Quote: Call it what you want. I think Borlands behaviour does show lack of independence. Hmmm... I don't. Now what? -- Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Mark Twain (1835-1910) Back to top john blackburn Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Another view Gord wrote: Quote: Agree with most of what you are saying. However, once I again I would like to put forth that I don't believe that the delay in any sort of announcement is due to legal issues. It appears to me (partly from Robert E's post) that Borland is not sure where they want to go with C++. Therefore it follows quite logically that they can't make any announcement yet. What is most significant is NOT that Borland may be reconsidering the future of C++ but RATHER what event caused them to re-evaluate after they made such a show of cross platform C++ and GUI with CBuilderX. Their display of their links with Bill Gates in the website (personal meeting with Bill Gates at the software show) seems out of all proportion with its, at first sight, immediate importance. They seemed to be wanting to put out a big message without saying what it was. Back to top Peter Agricola Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view "john blackburn" wrote: Quote: What is most significant is NOT that Borland may be reconsidering the future of C++ but RATHER what event caused them to re-evaluate after they made such a show of cross platform C++ and GUI with CBuilderX. Their display of their links with Bill Gates in the website (personal meeting with Bill Gates at the software show) seems out of all proportion with its, at first sight, immediate importance. They seemed to be wanting to put out a big message without saying what it was. It is important for uncle Bill to keep Borland alive. The judges aren't very fond of his monopoly game already. I'm not sure this is a good situation for C++ developers. I find the way a grown up man idolizes uncle Bill rather pathetic and it doesn't promise much good for us IMO. Peter Back to top JD Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view "Palle Meinert" <NoSpam (AT) NoVirus (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Call it what you want. I think Borlands behaviour does show lack of independence. Da!!! What developer IS independent of MS? Certainly not you or I or Borland. If you want independence from MS, switch to main frames. In the mean time, as MS goes, so goes the rest of the pc community. So, until you know how little or how much MS has told Borland about the future, blame MS for being the money machine that it is. ~ JD Back to top Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view At 15:56:54, 30.05.2004, JD wrote: Quote: "Palle Meinert" <NoSpam (AT) NoVirus (DOT) com> wrote: Call it what you want. I think Borlands behaviour does show lack of independence. Da!!! What developer IS independent of MS? Certainly not you or I or Borland. If you want independence from MS, switch to main frames. Or to Linux. <g> -- Rudy Velthuis (TeamB) "I failed to make the chess team because of my height." -- Woody Allen Back to top Gord Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view I R T wrote: Quote: to legal issues. It appears to me (partly from Robert E's post) that Borland is not sure where they want to go with C++. So why would any sane developer tie their future to Borland ? Yes, well that certainly is the question that many are asking. In years past it was because their product (in our opinion) was untouched in terms of mixing C++ with RAD. But with VS2005 likely going to beta in June, Borland could quite possibly see a large movement away at a pace quicker than the present trickle. I'm not quite sure why Borland can't see that it is easier to retain the customers you have than to try to get new ones. Anyway, with their present state of indecision, they are losing people that have to make a decision. Borland needs to 1) make up their minds quick, 2) provide a roadmap to the public just as quick, and 3) deliver a good product quickly. If not, developers will ask themselves "why buy BCB9 when it looks like Borland's management screw ups have cost them (Borland) a huge share of their own market, which will put future C++ support (beyond BCB9) in jeopardy?". Back to top Gord Guest Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Another view john blackburn wrote: Quote: What is most significant is NOT that Borland may be reconsidering the future of C++ but RATHER what event caused them to re-evaluate after they made such a show of cross platform C++ and GUI with CBuilderX. I'm guessing, based on the rest of your post, that you think MS pressured them. Possibly, but I don't think so. I think it is a simple matter of dollars. I am guessing that CBX is a major flop. Which would be completely not surprising. Most of their current user base wouldn't touch it because of no VCL. Plus, who from the MS VS camp is going to switch to something like CBX just for cross platform? 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