BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message SiegfriedN Guest Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:28 am    Post subject: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Some questions.. I assume nothing has been annouced, but maybe someone with a good understanding of .Net and D 4 MS.Net can explain if this is possible. (Lets assume non VCL.Net applications in this case) Could D9 4 MS.NET (or even D8 4 MS.Net) support the MS.Net v2 framework if MS.Net v2 is released after D9? I assume D9 will only be certified for MS.Net v1.1 If D9 is certified for the MS.Net v2 will is it backwards compatible with MS.Net v1.n? If the '64bit MS.Net' is available could D9 also support it? If D9 can not support the MS.Net v2 is a D10 4 MS.Net (or a D9 update) in the pipeline soon after D9 is released. It seems MS.Net v2 may be released in early 2005 around the time D9 is due. Just feels like we could be playing a catchup game here or even worse, playing an endless/frequent forced upgrade cycle.. Thanks, Siegs Back to top Dave Nottage [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. SiegfriedN wrote: Quote: Could D9 4 MS.NET (or even D8 4 MS.Net) support the MS.Net v2 framework if MS.Net v2 is released after D9? I assume D9 will only be certified for MS.Net v1.1 If .NET 2.0 is released after D9, D9 won't support it, unless it is in the form of some update to D9. Quote: If D9 is certified for the MS.Net v2 will is it backwards compatible with MS.Net v1.n? If .NET 2.0 is backwards compatible with .NET 1.x, yes. Quote: If the '64bit MS.Net' is available could D9 also support it? Apparently .NET executables produced by D8 run on the 64 bit version of ..NET, so presumably the same will apply for D9 .NET executables. Quote: It seems MS.Net v2 may be released in early 2005 around the time D9 is due. D9 is planned to be released late 2004. -- Dave Nottage [TeamB] Back to top Danny Thorpe Guest Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. SiegfriedN wrote: Quote: Could D9 4 MS.NET (or even D8 4 MS.Net) support the MS.Net v2 framework if MS.Net v2 is released after D9? Delphi 8 can link against .NET v2 assemblies already. This is not officially supported by the IDE, but the command line compiler can be configured to do it. I've tested it far enough to verify that it produces usable executable files, but I have not ventured any further than that. A tinkering spirit is recommended. Quote: I assume D9 will only be certified for MS.Net v1.1 Correct, given that .NET 1.1 will be the only official desktop .NET release available at the time D9 ships. Quote: If D9 is certified for the MS.Net v2 will is it backwards compatible with MS.Net v1.n? Applications compiled for .NET 2.0 will not run on .NET 1.x. Applications compiled for .NET 1.x will not run on .NET 2.0 unless you make special administrative policy changes to "float" the .NET library bindings for that app up to the 2.0 level. These are .NET issues, nothing to do with Delphi specifically. Quote: If the '64bit MS.Net' is available could D9 also support it? Delphi 8 code already runs on the beta 64 bit .NET builds. See the screenshots here: http://homepages.borland.com/dthorpe/blog/delphi/2004_03_01_archive.php# 108078848481166909 Quote: If D9 can not support the MS.Net v2 is a D10 4 MS.Net (or a D9 update) in the pipeline soon after D9 is released. Yes. Delphi will provide full support of .NET 2.0 (including generic types) in a product release that follows the official release of the ..NET 2.0 platform. Too many things change in betas for us to release a commercial product that requires a beta Microsoft platform. It's possible that we may be able to do a technology preview compiler for the beta .NET 2.0 platform prior to the .NET 2.0 platform release (as we did with the Delphi for .NET technology preview compiler that was included in Delphi 7, more than a year prior to the release of the Delphi 8 for .NET product), but that will depend upon how quickly and solidly we can get our D9 work items finished so that we can focus on ..NET 2.0 work. Quote: It seems MS.Net v2 may be released in early 2005 around the time D9 is due. Optimistic on the Microsoft estimate, pessimistic on the Borland estimate. Delphi 9's release target is by the end of 2004. Quote: Just feels like we could be playing a catchup game here or even worse, playing an endless/frequent forced upgrade cycle.. You say that as if it's something new? When has there not been another OS release looming that requires new support or synchronization in the tools? Yes, there is always something looming on the horizon that will probably require an application update or tools update to fully support. Such is life. If all you're interested in is .NET 2.0, then you should hold your purchases of operating systems, applications, tools, books, and new hardware until .NET 2.0 is an actual product for sale. Any action in advance of the actual release of .NET 2.0 is speculative. For producing applications today, we have Delphi 8 for .NET and Delphi 7 for Win32. We are working hard on Delphi 9 for both platform targets for the end of this year. -Danny -- Delphi Compiler Core: http://homepages.borland.com/dthorpe/blog/delphi/ Back to top Harry Van Tassell Guest Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Danny Thorpe wrote: .... Quote: Yes. Delphi will provide full support of .NET 2.0 (including generic types) in a product release that follows the official release of the .NET 2.0 platform. Too many things change in betas for us to release a commercial product that requires a beta Microsoft platform. .... It's possible that we may be able to do a technology preview compiler for the beta .NET 2.0 platform prior to the .NET 2.0 platform release (as we did with the Delphi for .NET technology preview compiler that was included in Delphi 7, more than a year prior to the release of the Delphi 8 for .NET product), but that will depend upon how quickly and solidly we can get our D9 work items finished so that we can focus on .NET 2.0 work. .... If all you're interested in is .NET 2.0, then you should hold your purchases of operating systems, applications, tools, books, and new hardware until .NET 2.0 is an actual product for sale. Any action in advance of the actual release of .NET 2.0 is speculative. I would urge you to consider a *much* more aggressive campaign for ASP.NET 2.0 than what you have outlined here. IMO ASP.NET v2.0 has significant new features that some will find compelling enough to want to commence learning and begin using as soon as possible and with the almost year long public beta program MS has made it possible to start the learning process today and then deploy ASP.NET v2.0 applications well before the final release of the commerical .NET v2.0 product. Using either beta-1 of the new Visual Web Developer 2005 Express edition which is currently available to download or the VS.NET 2005 Enterprise edition which is available via MSDN subscription or can be ordered by the general public on CD/DVD for a nominal shipping charge, one can begin to learn and develop ASP.NET v2.0 web applications. MS has announced it's intent to provide with beta-2 an early release "Go-Live" license which allows the deployment of the .NET v2.0 framework and ASP.NET v2.0 web applications to production web servers well before the final commercial release of .NET v2.0. In point of fact there are ASP.NET v2.0 applications running now, take a look at the bottom of this page: http://beta.asp.net/GuidedTour/default.aspx If Borland can't get a release of it's development tools for NET v2.0 and ASP.NET v2.0 into distribution very quickly, some of the more adventuresome element of their loyal user base will likely have trickled away and started using MS tools. I don't know how Borland can be expected to effectively compete against these year long public beta programs of Microsoft .NET products unless they become much more aggressive. It must be pure hell being in partnership with someone who has no compulsion against devouring your loyal customer base. --Hairy <Momma always said the early to rise gets the prize> Back to top John Kaster (Borland) Guest Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Harry Van Tassell in <40fd20b7 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com> wrote: Quote: If Borland can't get a release of it's development tools for NET v2.0 and ASP.NET v2.0 into distribution very quickly, some of the more adventuresome element of their loyal user base will likely have trickled away and started using MS tools. Harry, I appreciate your concern, but I fail to see how this is any different than the way things have always been since Borland first became a company. Quote: It must be pure hell being in partnership with someone who has no compulsion against devouring your loyal customer base. Borland has lived with co-opetition for quite a long time ;) -- John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, http://bdn.borland.com BorCon2004, all info in one place! http://info.borland.com/conf2004 Features and bugs: http://qc.borland.com Get source: http://cc.borland.com Unofficial information overload: http://blogs.borland.com Back to top Dave Nottage [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Harry Van Tassell wrote: Quote: If Borland can't get a release of it's development tools for NET v2.0 and ASP.NET v2.0 into distribution very quickly, some of the more adventuresome element of their loyal user base will likely have trickled away and started using MS tools. "If Borland doesn't do X quickly, people will start using other tools" Lather, rinse, repeat. -- Dave Nottage [TeamB] Back to top Dave Nottage [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Danny Thorpe wrote: Quote: Applications compiled for .NET 1.x will not run on .NET 2.0 unless you make special administrative policy changes to "float" the .NET library bindings for that app up to the 2.0 level. Something that the home user can do easily? <g> -- Dave Nottage [TeamB] Back to top John Wester [Group W] Guest Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. In article <40fd9573$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, [email]dnottage (AT) n0sp4m (DOT) bigpond.net.au[/email] says... Quote: Danny Thorpe wrote: Applications compiled for .NET 1.x will not run on .NET 2.0 unless you make special administrative policy changes to "float" the .NET library bindings for that app up to the 2.0 level. Something that the home user can do easily? Read the small disclaimer on the bottom of the screen: "Professional driver on a closed course. Do not try at home. Offer void where prohibited by law" -- John Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts Back to top Harry Van Tassell Guest Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:45 am    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Dave Nottage [TeamB] wrote: Quote: Harry Van Tassell wrote: If Borland can't get a release of it's development tools for NET v2.0 and ASP.NET v2.0 into distribution very quickly, some of the more adventuresome element of their loyal user base will likely have trickled away and started using MS tools. "If Borland doesn't do X quickly, people will start using other tools" Lather, rinse, repeat. One day Henny-penny was picking up corn in the rick-yard when-whack!-an acorn hit her upon the head. "Goodness gracious me!" said Henny-penny; "the sky's a-going to fall; I must go and tell the King." --Hairy <Momma always said, fat pigs feast on fallen acorns> Back to top Danny Thorpe Guest Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Harry Van Tassell wrote: Quote: I would urge you to consider a much more aggressive campaign for ASP.NET 2.0 than what you have outlined here. Do you recommend people deploy production systems built upon the beta ASP .NET 2.0 releases? I hope not. It's called 'beta' for a reason. Borland is will be very aggressive on supporting the .NET 2.0 platform when it is available. .NET 2.0 isn't ready yet, so we are focusing our short-term efforts on production systems (.NET 1.1 and Win32) while we proceed with long-term research and development in preparation for full ..NET 2.0 support. Borland is actively engaged with Microsoft on .NET 2.0 development, and has been for more than a year now. We can't afford the support costs to redeliver our entire tool chain to paying customers every time a new beta platform release comes out that changes or breaks last month's build. That would soak up all of our development resources and prevent us from making forward progress on the product as a whole. Borland tools will anticipate the .NET 2.0 release with preliminary, informal, noncertified support for many areas of the beta .NET 2.0. This is already the case with Delphi 8 capable of linking against beta ..NET 2.0 assemblies. Will that include preliminary support for beta ASP.Net 2.0 prior to the release of ASP.NET 2.0? I don't know. That's a pretty big piece to bite off on an ad-hoc basis. Nights and weekends are already fully booked with real product work. -Danny -- Delphi Compiler Core: http://homepages.borland.com/dthorpe/blog/delphi/ Back to top Harry Van Tassell Guest Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Danny Thorpe wrote: Quote: Do you recommend people deploy production systems built upon the beta ASP .NET 2.0 releases? I hope not. It's called 'beta' for a reason. What I recommend about deploying the beta is irrelevant. When Microsoft issues a "Go-Live" license that allows deployment on production servers it will be giving it's tacit approval and recommendation. --Hairy Back to top Khen Chzakuv Guest Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Danny Thorpe wrote: Quote: Borland tools will anticipate the .NET 2.0 release with preliminary, informal, noncertified support for many areas of the beta .NET 2.0. This is already the case with Delphi 8 capable of linking against beta .NET 2.0 assemblies. Great, that's what I was hoping for. Back to top Danny Thorpe Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Harry Van Tassell wrote: Quote: Danny Thorpe wrote: Do you recommend people deploy production systems built upon the beta ASP .NET 2.0 releases? I hope not. It's called 'beta' for a reason. What I recommend about deploying the beta is irrelevant. If you are advocating that Borland release commercial tools that support the ASP .NET 2.0 beta platform, aren't you requesting that Borland deploy a production system (called Delphi) built upon the ASP 2.0 beta release? Quote: When Microsoft issues a "Go-Live" license that allows deployment on production servers it will be giving it's tacit approval and recommendation. Check the license agreement. I'll bet you lunch at BorCon that such licenses state that any such deployment prior to official release is at the user's risk. The emphasis is on "allows exception to the non-deployment/non-disclosure clause of the beta EULA", not on "it works." Borland issues such licenses prior to official product release as well in limited circumstances, to allow a third party to deploy a server product before the Borland tools that were used to build it are officially released. Such licenses are completely independent of the Borland product testing schedule. -Danny -- Delphi Compiler Core: http://homepages.borland.com/dthorpe/blog/delphi/ Back to top Harry Van Tassell Guest Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Danny Thorpe wrote: Quote: Harry Van Tassell wrote: What I recommend about deploying the beta is irrelevant. If you are advocating that Borland release commercial tools that support the ASP .NET 2.0 beta platform, aren't you requesting that Borland deploy a production system (called Delphi) built upon the ASP 2.0 beta release? For the record, what I said is "...urge you to consider a much more aggressive campaign for ASP.NET 2.0 than what you have outlined... ". I haven't advocated any specific course of action that a more aggressive campaign might take. After all isn't that what the Borland management gets paid the big bucks for.<RBG> Quote: When Microsoft issues a "Go-Live" license that allows deployment on production servers it will be giving it's tacit approval and recommendation. Check the license agreement. I'll bet you lunch at BorCon that such licenses state that any such deployment prior to official release is at the user's risk. The emphasis is on "allows exception to the non-deployment/non-disclosure clause of the beta EULA", not on "it works." Notice I carefully used the term "...tacit approval and recommendation". To me the word "tacit" as used here means "not spoken". Were I to utilize the "Go-Live" license, what I would expect is a "good-faith" effort on the part of Microsoft that the final RTM version of the .NET v2.0 framework will not break ASP.NET v2.0 apps developed using the "Go-Live" version of the framework. Sorry but I can't check the "Go-Live" license since it isn't expected to be issued until the release of a subsequent beta version of the framework sometime in the coming months. I'm sure it will *not* contain any claims that "it works". I expect it will state that the user assumes all risks to the extent that Microsoft is able to disclaim those risks under applicable law. While I'm no expert, it has been my observation that WRT disclaiming risk, most all software licenses contain language essentially the same as this quote from a recent Borland license. "...THE PRODUCT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. BORLAND HEREBY EXCLUDES AND DISCLAIMS ALL IMPLIED OR STATUTORY WARRANTIES, INCLUDING ANY WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, QUALITY, NON-INFRINGEMENT, TITLE, RESULTS, EFFORTS OR QUIET ENJOYMENT. THERE IS NO WARRANTY THAT THE PRODUCT WILL BE ERROR-FREE OR WILL FUNCTION WITHOUT INTERRUPTION. YOU ASSUME THE ENTIRE RISK FOR THE RESULTS OBTAINED USING THE PRODUCT. TO THE EXTENT THAT BORLAND MAY NOT DISCLAIM ANY WARRANTY AS A MATTER OF APPLICABLE LAW, THE SCOPE AND DURATION OF SUCH WARRANTY WILL BE THE MINIMUM PERMITTED UNDER SUCH LAW." End users can find little assurance and comfort in software licensees. ;-) --Hairy Back to top Dave Nottage [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: D9 4 MS.Net questions.. Harry Van Tassell wrote: Quote: For the record, what I said is "...urge you to consider a much more aggressive campaign for ASP.NET 2.0 than what you have outlined... ". I haven't advocated any specific course of action that a more aggressive campaign might take. I urge you to make a much more aggressive campaign aimed at the people who make a difference. I'm not going to advocate any specific course of action, though <g> -- Dave Nottage [TeamB] Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum C++ Builder Newsgroups----------------C++ BuilderC++ Builder (ActiveX)C++ Builder (Announcements)C++ Builder (Command Line Tools)C++ Builder DatabasesC++ Builder Databases (ADO)C++ Builder Databases (Desktop)C++ Builder Databases (InterBase Express)C++ Builder Databases (Multi-Tier)C++ Builder Databases (SQL Servers)C++ Builder (Graphics)C++ Builder (IDE)C++ Builder (Internet)C++ Builder (Internet Socket)C++ Builder (Internet Web)C++ Builder (Jobs)C++ Builder (Language)C++ Builder (Language C++)C++ Builder (Compatibility with MFC)C++ Builder (Native API)C++ Builder (Non-Technical)C++ Builder (Students)C++ Builder (Third Party Tools)C++ Builder (Upgrade)C++ Builder (VCL)C++ Builder (VCL Components Usage)C++ Builder (VCL Components Development)C++ Builder (VCL Usage)C++ Builder (WinAPI)C++ Builder Installation Delphi Newsgroups----------------Delphi (General)Delphi ActiveX Controls UsageDelphi ActiveX Controls DevelopmentDelphi As400Delphi DatabasesDelphi Databases (ADO)Delphi Databases (dbExpress)Delphi Databases (Desktop)Delphi Databases (InterBase Express)Delphi Databases (Multi-Tier)Delphi Databases (SQL Servers)Delphi DeploymentDelphi GraphicsDelphi IDEDelphi InternationalizationDelphi InternetDelphi Internet Isapi-WebBrokerDelphi Internet WebSnapDelphi Internet WinsockDelphi JobsDelphi Language BASMDelphi Language ObjectPascalDelphi Model Driven Architecture (General)Delphi Model Driven Architecture (Third Party)Delphi MultimediaDelphi Native APIDelphi Non-TechnicalDelphi ObjectPascalDelphi OLE AutomationDelphi OO designDelphi OpenToolsAPIDelphi Reporting-ChartingDelphi RTLDelphi StudentsDelphi TeamSourceDelphi Thirdparty ToolsDelphi Thirdparty Tools (General)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (IntraWeb)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (RaveReports)Delphi UpgradeDelphi VCLDelphi VCL ComponentsDelphi VCL Components UsingDelphi VCL Components WritingDelphi WebServices SOAPDelphi WinAPIDelphi XMLDelphi Installationcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misccomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usagecomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writingcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.databasescomp.lang.pascal.delphi.misccomp.sources.delphi JBuilder Newsgroups----------------JBuilderJBuilder AnnouncementsJBuilder Applet IssuesJBuilder As400JBuilder CompilerJBuilder CORBA/RMIJBuilder DatabasesJBuilder DB SwingJBuilder DebuggerJBuilder DeploymentJBuilder DocumentationJBuilder EnterpriseJBuilder HandheldJBuilder IDEJBuilder JavaJBuilder JavaAPIJBuilder Java LanguageJBuilder Java SwingJBuilder Java BeansJBuilder Java Beans UsageJBuilder Java Beans DevelopmentJBuilder JBCLJBuilder JDataStoreJBuilder JobsJBuilder LinuxJBuilder MacintoshJBuilder & MobileSetJBuilder MultiLingual AppsJBuilder Non-TechnicalJBuilder OpenToolsJBuilder Servlets (JSP)JBuilder StudentsJBuilder Team DevelopmentJBuilder Thirdparty ToolsJBuilder UpgradeJBuilder Installation InterBase Newsgroups----------------InterBaseInterBase Bug DiscussionInterBase GeneralInterBase IBConsoleInterBase OpenSourceInterBase ReplicationInterBase SQLInterBase ThirdpartyInterBase Installation Miscellaneous Borland Newsgroups----------------AppCenterAppServerEnteraVisiBroker  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.