BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environment          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Colin B Maharaj Guest Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:47 pm    Post subject: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environment If I did not see it I would not believe it. I am doing an installation of the telecom software for Call Accounting from... http://www.avotus.com/site/sub_prodservices/icm-enhanced_call_accounting.html ....at the new Marriot Hotel here in Trinidad. What is interesting is I am dealing with the Property Management Interface guy whose function (among others) is to tie in the card readers, the commands to open and close rooms to the PABX and (my part) to send telephone call records made by the guest, from the Package to the PMS system. All this is done over a serial interface. And what I see is incredible, it looks like most of the interface modules are MS-DOS serial applications using Clipper files. This apparently is the non-windows version of Fidelio that still manages hotels like the Marriot. What I have realised over the years too is that Windows 2000 and XP actually have better support for 16 bit apps than say NT or ME Thing is, if it works , why fix it. My Dev environment is still Win 2000 and I moved up from Win95 - I did not even spend much time in 98. Microsoft have documented via their LOGO program, specific ways to have apps run in their OSs, with code snippets on detecting OS version, Service packs etc. and with stuff like LoadLibrary etc... you can still call Win200 / Win2003 or XP specific code from BCB 6. My Dev environment is still BCB3 and I have created apps working in Win 95B all the way up to Win2003 Server. Like I said many moons ago, when the PE file format has changed, then we are in trouble. http://tinyurl.com/4b53 Back to top Randall Parker Guest Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Colin, Why do you use such an old version of BCB? I'd hate to go back even as far as v4. Colin B Maharaj wrote: Quote: My Dev environment is still BCB3 and I have created apps working in Win 95B all the way up to Win2003 Server. Back to top Colin B Maharaj Guest Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Sadly, I have not gotten the time to 'port' everthing to BCB 6, which I did buy about a year ago. I did start certain utility applications and simple communication applications using BCB6 which are essential for my project, but the largest EXEecutable is still in BCB3. Thing is, I am doing two jobs, one as a full time telecoms technician here in Trinidad and the other as a Programmer - part time. I am hoping to leave the current full time job to give myself time to do the right thing. But it is still interesting that somehow - BCB3 can create fresh applications that would work on both Legacy and modern OSs - with some effort. Like I said when the PE format is gone then we are in trouble. Randall Parker wrote: Quote: Colin, Why do you use such an old version of BCB? I'd hate to go back even as far as v4. Colin B Maharaj wrote: My Dev environment is still BCB3 and I have created apps working in Win 95B all the way up to Win2003 Server. Back to top Henry Hansen Guest Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Colin B Maharaj <noreply (AT) myhost (DOT) com> wrote in news:41b1c007$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: Quote: My Dev environment is still BCB3 and I have created apps working in Win 95B all the way up to Win2003 Server. In 20-20 hindsight, I wish I would have spent far more time simply improving my programs, learning new algorithms and writing C++ code than upgrading and upgrading and upgrading ... A carpenter can build a house that stands for decades and have something to show for his work. A programmer is lucky if his program even compiles and runs in a few years. I don't think this culture of throwing away our work in a constant treadmill of language changes and upgrades is very wise. Back to top Duane Hebert Guest Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm "Henry Hansen" <hh1000 (AT) h-o-t-m-a-i-l (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Colin B Maharaj <noreply (AT) myhost (DOT) com> wrote in news:41b1c007$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: My Dev environment is still BCB3 and I have created apps working in Win 95B all the way up to Win2003 Server. In 20-20 hindsight, I wish I would have spent far more time simply improving my programs, learning new algorithms and writing C++ code than upgrading and upgrading and upgrading ... A carpenter can build a house that stands for decades and have something to show for his work. A programmer is lucky if his program even compiles and runs in a few years. I don't think this culture of throwing away our work in a constant treadmill of language changes and upgrades is very wise. Agreed. But that's the nice thing about standards and compliance. Most of the code that I've thrown away in the last several years is GUI stuff and that's usually due to clients (or management) expecting a new style/flashier interface. I'm still using classes to do fuzzy calculations and other control stuff that I wrote a few years ago. Most of it is the same as it was with BCC except that it was updated to use std containers etc. It's gone through all the BCB iterations, MSVC and still works on Linux boxes. I think this is a compelling reason to get a good compliant compiler, have a strict separation between GUI and non gui stuff and write compliant code without depending on non-standard extensions when not imperative to do so. Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm That's been my experience as well. I did a little job for someone last year which contained code that I first wrote for DOS in the late 80's. In the late 80's the UI was DOS code. In '92 it received a Windows 3.1 EasyWin interface (yeah, I know, but that's what they wanted). In '97 it was a Win32 GUI with the DOS version as the stub (so the same binary ran on both his DOS and Win95 machines). Now it's a Win32 UI only (still simple - I dislike a UI that sacrifices clear, easy operation on the altar of "looks pretty"). All those programs have the same inner workings. Depending upon what you mean by a "good compliant compiler", I might dissagree. Some must write using the very latest thing, but I've found that a stable, maintainable code base is not the most likely place to find code from the the Lambda libraries. I wouldn't push the envelope in what I charge money for unless the customer requested it. .. Ed Quote: Duane Hebert wrote in message news:41b775e9 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... I think this is a compelling reason to get a good compliant compiler, have a strict separation between GUI and non gui stuff and write compliant code without depending on non-standard extensions when not imperative to do so. Back to top Hendrik Schober Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Ed Mulroy [TeamB] <dont_email_me (AT) bitbuc (DOT) ket> wrote: Quote: [...] Depending upon what you mean by a "good compliant compiler", I might dissagree. Some must write using the very latest thing, but I've found that a stable, maintainable code base is not the most likely place to find code from the the Lambda libraries. I wouldn't push the envelope in what I charge money for unless the customer requested it. Depending on what you call "the very latest thing". <g> Some might argue that AOP is it, and that TMP is out already. I wouldn't use the Lambda lib nowadays, because I am expecting to many problems with some of the compilers we use. OTOH, I do use some of boost (I think you do despise us weak guys needing smart ptrs to clean up after us >, but how about 'boost::array<>' to have a plain old C array play nicely with the STL?) and I did write some TMP stuff myself. Latest outcome, still hot from just being typed last night, is a logging lib that will fold this calls log<Debugger,Warn>( ORIGIN_HERE, "Live is @(liv), mana is @(man)", ERROR_PAR(liv)+ERROR_PAR(man) ); to a single 'if' at runtime, if there is no log target installed which takes the message. Only if there is one, the error parameter list will be created, and everything passed to it. If I disable logging for some targets (e.g. the 'Debugger' target from above) or some severities (like 'Warn') at /compile-time/, VC7.1 will optimize the /whole line/ to nothing. Of course, this is demanding on compilers, but if I get this to compile and run on all that we use, it will be great. (We had found logging to be a performance bottleneck in some places even if no log targets were installed due to all the parameter lists being created and thrown away for nothing.) And with compilers catching up on std conformance, porting this to newer ones will only become easier every year. So, while this probably might use "the latest thing" according to your definition, it does give some real value and hopefully will still compile and do what it is expected to do in a few years. (Well, at least on Windows it will compile in ten years, when VC is fully conformant. <g> ) Quote: . Ed [...] Schobi -- [email]SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de[/email] is never read I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be prefered to those thinking they've found it." Terry Pratchett Back to top Andrue Cope [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Henry Hansen wrote: Quote: A carpenter can build a house that stands for decades and have something to show for his work. A programmer is lucky if his program even compiles and runs in a few years. Speak for yourself :) Our run time library originally started as a .lib for MSDOS applications built using TC3.1. After a while it got converted into a lib/dll for Windows 3.x using BC4.5. Then it was ported to Win32 using BC5.01. Then BCB3, then BCB4, then BCB5 now BCB6. There are parts of it that are not as well coded as others but we are removing most of them now. This year we proactively removed/rewrote anything that looked ugly. Next year we are going to review every one of the one hundred and ninety units. It's a witch hunt! I leave you with this comment from one of the header files: /* *START FILE NAME : HSP.cpp CREATED BY : Andrew Cope DATE : 15.1.92 COPYRIGHT : Vogon Intl. Ltd. FILE TYPE : C++ source DESCRIPTION : Code for HSM (handle sharing module) : : 05/01/99 - Updated to compile under WIN32 Ah it brings back memories, that does. It also reminds me that I've been working on the same project for over twelve years. Different versions, thankfully and it has grown a lot but still :-/ -- Andrue Cope [TeamB] [Bicester, Uk] http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html Back to top Hendrik Schober Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Andrue Cope [TeamB] <no.spam (AT) not (DOT) a.valid.address> wrote: Quote: [...] I leave you with this comment from one of the header files: Wow, you do have a brother Andrew??? You can't leave us with that without telling the whole story! <g> Quote: [...] Schobi -- [email]SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de[/email] is never read I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be prefered to those thinking they've found it." Terry Pratchett Back to top Andrue Cope [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Hendrik Schober wrote: Quote: I leave you with this comment from one of the header files: Wow, you do have a brother Andrew??? You can't leave us with that without telling the whole story! Andrew is my real name. I use 'Andrue' for online purposes. It's a great way of ensuring you can have the user name you want :) It did cause a bit of confusion at Manchester airport when I went to pick up my tickets for BorCon but I just told the guy they were bought for me by an American company and Americans can't spell :D -- Andrue Cope [TeamB] [Bicester, Uk] http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html Back to top Duane Hebert Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm "Ed Mulroy [TeamB]" <dont_email_me (AT) bitbuc (DOT) ket> wrote Quote: In the late 80's the UI was DOS code. In '92 it received a Windows 3.1 EasyWin interface (yeah, I know, but that's what they wanted). In '97 it was a Win32 GUI with the DOS version as the stub (so the same binary ran on both his DOS and Win95 machines). Now it's a Win32 UI only (still simple - I dislike a UI that sacrifices clear, easy operation on the altar of "looks pretty"). All those programs have the same inner workings. Our first "gui" was in dos using BCC. It's gone through BCB 3->6->VC/Qt. Most of the non gui stuff hasn't changed. Quote: Depending upon what you mean by a "good compliant compiler", I might dissagree. Some must write using the very latest thing, but I've found that a stable, maintainable code base is not the most likely place to find code from the the Lambda libraries. I wouldn't push the envelope in what I charge money for unless the customer requested it. I'm not talking about the very latest thing but standard lib/STL stuff (including boost) needs to compile. The problem's that we've had going from BCB to say G++ have been minimal (things like Borland's math.h that aren't compatable) I can currently build the majority of my non GUI stuff on BCB/G++/VC7.1 with only a couple of ifdefs. This makes debugging a bunch more effective. If CBX gets updated and works with Qt I should be able to do nearly the whole thing on all three. Back to top Henry Hansen Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm "Andrue Cope [TeamB]" <no.spam (AT) not (DOT) a.valid.address> wrote in news:41b8182e$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: Quote: A carpenter can build a house that stands for decades and have something to show for his work. A programmer is lucky if his program even compiles and runs in a few years. Speak for yourself :) Our run time library originally started as a .lib for MSDOS applications built using TC3.1. After a while it got converted into a lib/dll for Windows 3.x using BC4.5. Then it was ported to Win32 using BC5.01. Then BCB3, then BCB4, then BCB5 now BCB6. Yes ... the intent of my original comments was that I wish I'd used more C/C++ over the years (as I too have 10 year old C code producing mission critical results). Its the other dead end programming languages that I've wasted time with such as VB6, ASP, Clipper, FoxPro ... and even possibly Delphi, that make me think I should have done all my work in C/C++, even if it required more work. Heck my C programs have outlived complete application life cycles for VB6 apps, that have long since been forgotten. Back to top Mike Margerum Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Quote: I think this is a compelling reason to get a good compliant compiler, have a strict separation between GUI and non gui stuff and write compliant code without depending on non-standard extensions when not imperative to do so. Anyone have any good documentation/books to read for approaches on doing this? Back to top Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Mike Margerum <mike (AT) junk (DOT) com> writes: Quote: I think this is a compelling reason to get a good compliant compiler, have a strict separation between GUI and non gui stuff and write compliant code without depending on non-standard extensions when not imperative to do so. Anyone have any good documentation/books to read for approaches on doing this? The technique goes by many names, but one of the most prominent is "Model-View-Controller (MVC) pattern". The first link I found on google documenting this (briefly) is by Apple: http://tinyurl.com/5p98v (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/AppArchitecture/Concepts/MVC.html) -- Chris (TeamB); Back to top Colin B Maharaj Guest Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Defining the Death of a Compiler or Development Environm Can't believe this, for the past week I have been using my 'old' laptop I got in '96 with a Terminal Emulator I did in DOS back in '97. I/We have been using this emulator to administrate the PABX at the Marriot, Trinidad. I had also build a scripting engine in the terminal and still using it to make tedious/monotonous, changes to the 100+ extensions in the Hotel. I have not used the terminal in years (or the laptop) but the VT220/420 emulation works great and we use it for the Voice Mail Admin and works great! - Still! Wrote it in Borland C++ 3.0 for DOS. Heck my C programs have Quote: outlived complete application life cycles for VB6 apps, that have long since been forgotten. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) All times are GMT Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum C++ Builder Newsgroups----------------C++ BuilderC++ Builder (ActiveX)C++ Builder (Announcements)C++ Builder (Command Line Tools)C++ Builder DatabasesC++ Builder Databases (ADO)C++ Builder Databases (Desktop)C++ Builder Databases (InterBase Express)C++ Builder Databases (Multi-Tier)C++ Builder Databases (SQL Servers)C++ Builder (Graphics)C++ Builder (IDE)C++ Builder (Internet)C++ Builder (Internet Socket)C++ Builder (Internet Web)C++ Builder (Jobs)C++ Builder (Language)C++ Builder (Language C++)C++ Builder (Compatibility with MFC)C++ Builder (Native API)C++ Builder (Non-Technical)C++ Builder (Students)C++ Builder (Third Party Tools)C++ Builder (Upgrade)C++ Builder (VCL)C++ Builder (VCL Components Usage)C++ Builder (VCL Components Development)C++ Builder (VCL Usage)C++ Builder (WinAPI)C++ Builder Installation Delphi Newsgroups----------------Delphi (General)Delphi ActiveX Controls UsageDelphi ActiveX Controls DevelopmentDelphi As400Delphi DatabasesDelphi Databases (ADO)Delphi Databases (dbExpress)Delphi Databases (Desktop)Delphi Databases (InterBase Express)Delphi Databases (Multi-Tier)Delphi Databases (SQL Servers)Delphi DeploymentDelphi GraphicsDelphi IDEDelphi InternationalizationDelphi InternetDelphi Internet Isapi-WebBrokerDelphi Internet WebSnapDelphi Internet WinsockDelphi JobsDelphi Language BASMDelphi Language ObjectPascalDelphi Model Driven Architecture (General)Delphi Model Driven Architecture (Third Party)Delphi MultimediaDelphi Native APIDelphi Non-TechnicalDelphi ObjectPascalDelphi OLE AutomationDelphi OO designDelphi OpenToolsAPIDelphi Reporting-ChartingDelphi RTLDelphi StudentsDelphi TeamSourceDelphi Thirdparty ToolsDelphi Thirdparty Tools (General)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (IntraWeb)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (RaveReports)Delphi UpgradeDelphi VCLDelphi VCL ComponentsDelphi VCL Components UsingDelphi VCL Components WritingDelphi WebServices SOAPDelphi WinAPIDelphi XMLDelphi Installationcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misccomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usagecomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writingcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.databasescomp.lang.pascal.delphi.misccomp.sources.delphi JBuilder Newsgroups----------------JBuilderJBuilder AnnouncementsJBuilder Applet IssuesJBuilder As400JBuilder CompilerJBuilder CORBA/RMIJBuilder DatabasesJBuilder DB SwingJBuilder DebuggerJBuilder DeploymentJBuilder DocumentationJBuilder EnterpriseJBuilder HandheldJBuilder IDEJBuilder JavaJBuilder JavaAPIJBuilder Java LanguageJBuilder Java SwingJBuilder Java BeansJBuilder Java Beans UsageJBuilder Java Beans DevelopmentJBuilder JBCLJBuilder JDataStoreJBuilder JobsJBuilder LinuxJBuilder MacintoshJBuilder & MobileSetJBuilder MultiLingual AppsJBuilder Non-TechnicalJBuilder OpenToolsJBuilder Servlets (JSP)JBuilder StudentsJBuilder Team DevelopmentJBuilder Thirdparty ToolsJBuilder UpgradeJBuilder Installation InterBase Newsgroups----------------InterBaseInterBase Bug DiscussionInterBase GeneralInterBase IBConsoleInterBase OpenSourceInterBase ReplicationInterBase SQLInterBase ThirdpartyInterBase Installation Miscellaneous Borland Newsgroups----------------AppCenterAppServerEnteraVisiBroker  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.