BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Delphi in schools? Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Bryce K. Nielsen Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Delphi in schools? I don't get this one. Everytime I suggest that Delphi needs to be in more universities, it gets shot down saying there's no profit in it. I tried stressing this on the last Delphi tour but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. Let me elaborate with my own personal story. I went to BYU for college and their first 2 years of courses were Delphi (141, 142, 232 were pascal/Delphi classes). It was effectively the first real language I had learned, it got me into the workforce quickly, and I've been using Delphi for 10 years now, all because of my schooling. When D2006 was released, I was curious to see how it was received at my old college. I went to the bookstore and to my dismay, it wasn't available for sale. I asked an associate about it, they had never heard of Delphi, and he had to ask his manager. His manager thought for a minute then said, "Oh yes, Delphi. We don't order those anymore except through special order." Why is this the case? Why is Delphi not in *every* college bookstore across the globe? Why are not more colleges TEACHING Delphi? BYU has since changed it's cirriculum to be java only (I hear they took out their C++ classes too, those were the 300-400 level classes). I personally think that one of Delphi's greatest strengths is that it is so easy to learn and *should* be taught to people wanting to learn programming langauges. I can't tell you how easy it was to switch from Delphi to VB, C#, Java, etc. However I can imagine that going from VB to Delphi would be rather tricky. It's got the best basic skills out there, and at the same time is one of the easiest languages to learn. One more reason that I think DevCo should start stressing Delphi in acedemia is for "future" workforce. One reason I try to promote Delphi so much is because it was the first language taught to me. As new students emerge from schools, they will be pushing and advocating the langauges they learn in school. It's the whole "grassroots" campaign, and IMHO it starts in schools. Maybe even HighSchools. -BKN Back to top Peter Morris [Droopy eyes Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? I agree with you. I learned Pascal (Turbo Pascal 4.0) when I left school whereas a friend of mine went somewhere else and learned QuickBasic. I ended up in Delphi whereas he ended up in VB. Anyone who thinks that teaching a certain language to students has no effect on the market is mistaken if you ask me. -- Pete ==== Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, ECO extensions, FastStrings http://www.droopyeyes.com My blog http://blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/ Back to top Mark A. Andrews Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Brian Moelk wrote: Quote: We'll see if DevCo can, but times have changed. With the emergence of good quality free compilers/libraries/frameworks and educational budget cuts, I'm not hopeful. The nature of the Delphi experience almost requires the IDE, so they'd have to figure out a way to deliver a non-crippled educational version to schools when they face stiff competition from Java/.NET. First of all you produce a reasonably priced system that doesn't have the "no commercial application" restriction. Why would a starving student be inclined to pay even the educational price for Delphi when he can use Java for free with no restrictions on creating apps that will buy beer. I paid for many toys in college (and some necessities as well) doing freelance programming using my trusty Turbo 3.01A compiler. Borlan became a legitimate company on a $49.95 development tool. Yes, times have changed, but perceived value hasn't. Mark Back to top Bryce K. Nielsen Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Quote: The problem with the "workforce" argument is that it holds no weight in regards to Delphi in comparison with Java/C#. Ah but it does. I can't tell you how much easier it is to learn Delphi than Java as a starter language. And I can't tell you once you have a good grasp of the abstracts of Delphi, how easy it is to move from Delphi to Java -or- C#. If you start with C#, it's a lot trickier to move to Java and visa-versa, let alone the complexities of the languages (read more difficult to learn). IMHO, Delphi is the best "middle-ground" language out there, prime for schools. Not sure on Ruby though, never tried that language... -BKN Back to top Brian Moelk Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Quote: You need a free compiler to be able to convince some schools to use it. It is IMHO one of the main reasons that Java has succeeded to infiltrate schools... Indeed, but only *one* of the reasons; it's necessary, but not sufficient. -- Brian Moelk bmoelk (AT) NObrainendeavorSPAM (DOT) FORcomME http://www.brainendeavor.com Back to top Brian Moelk Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Quote: First of all you produce a reasonably priced system that doesn't have the "no commercial application" restriction. Why would a starving student be inclined to pay even the educational price for Delphi when he can use Java for free with no restrictions on creating apps that will buy beer. Exactly...why would they? Although I don't really think licensing restrictions are a big deal at all to students. IMO, most students will use whatever they're taught and don't necessarily care about licensing issues. Quote: I paid for many toys in college (and some necessities as well) doing freelance programming using my trusty Turbo 3.01A compiler. Borlan became a legitimate company on a $49.95 development tool. Yes, times have changed, but perceived value hasn't. I can't imagine the perceived value for a student looking at the *free* VS Express edition compared to even a $49 BDS edition would be more appealing than a dime bag. ;) -- Brian Moelk bmoelk (AT) NObrainendeavorSPAM (DOT) FORcomME http://www.brainendeavor.com Back to top Kevin B Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Brian Moelk wrote: Quote: Indeed, but only *one* of the reasons; it's necessary, but not sufficient. True, and the ante has been upped by Microsoft with Visual Studio Express. However, with the "Free for 1 year" clause that Microsoft has attached to Express that may not be good enough for schools to bite. DevCo should up that and produce a DevCo Developer Studio Foundation/Express that is free ad infinitum. They just need to put in enough stuff to make it usable for teaching. Cheers, Kevin. Back to top Kevin B Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Bryce K. Nielsen wrote: Quote: I don't get this one. Everytime I suggest that Delphi needs to be in more universities, it gets shot down saying there's no profit in it. I tried stressing this on the last Delphi tour but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. I've run into the same problem. I think this is a fundamental strategy that DevCo needs to have. One of the key changes they need to make to get this to work is PRODUCE A DELPHI SDK a la the JDK and the .NET SDK. You need a free compiler to be able to convince some schools to use it. It is IMHO one of the main reasons that Java has succeeded to infiltrate schools... Cheers, Kevin. Back to top Harry Barclay Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Bryce K. Nielsen wrote: Quote: Maybe even HighSchools. -BKN I agree with everything you have said, except I would put even more emphasis on getting it into High Schools. There are a lot of very talented kids who take Computer Science in High School and the sooner you get them started with Delphi the better. Harry Back to top Brian Moelk Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Quote: The more I think about it, the more I really think Delphi is the best instructional language. I'd argue that Ruby is a very good, if not better instructional language. Quote: Delphi in High School would be a great way to grass-roots the new DevCo. *Especially* if you could get a free version in their hands. I could see kids wanting to write applications that could help around the house, let alone prepping them for college and workforce. (though if you really wanted highschool students to be passionate about programming, it'd probably have to be game-related ) The problem with the "workforce" argument is that it holds no weight in regards to Delphi in comparison with Java/C#. -- Brian Moelk bmoelk (AT) NObrainendeavorSPAM (DOT) FORcomME http://www.brainendeavor.com Back to top Bryce K. Nielsen Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Quote: I agree with everything you have said, except I would put even more emphasis on getting it into High Schools. There are a lot of very talented kids who take Computer Science in High School and the sooner you get them started with Delphi the better. The more I think about it, the more I really think Delphi is the best instructional language. I have a friend in high school who's learning Java and keeps asking me various questions, how he doesn't understand how classes work, the way java works with files, etc. Delphi was a snap to pick up, and I didn't even realize until about a year later that I was learning decent OOP. For example, I think (if memory serves) that whenever I needed a function, I was taught to make it part of the private section of the Form I was working on. Just seemed the natural way to do it. Later, as OOP started getting roots into my way of thinking, I looked back at some early code and saw that what I had done wasn't too bad, and I had only done it because it seemed the natural way to do it in Delphi. And was real easy to refactor into a better organized program. I look at some closet VB developers code and it's a mess, very difficult to clean up. Delphi in High School would be a great way to grass-roots the new DevCo. *Especially* if you could get a free version in their hands. I could see kids wanting to write applications that could help around the house, let alone prepping them for college and workforce. (though if you really wanted highschool students to be passionate about programming, it'd probably have to be game-related ) -BKN Back to top Steve Trefethen (Delphi R Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Bryce K. Nielsen wrote: Quote: I don't get this one. Everytime I suggest that Delphi needs to be in more universities, it gets shot down saying there's no profit in it. I tried stressing this on the last Delphi tour but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. Since the announced spin out there have been numerous internal conversations about how the approach of getting our tools into schools need to be reexamined. -- -Steve Delphi.NET/C#Builder R&D Borland Software Corporation http://homepages.borland.com/strefethen http://blogs.borland.com/stevet Back to top Eric Schreiber Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Mark A. Andrews wrote: Quote: First of all you produce a reasonably priced system that doesn't have the "no commercial application" restriction. Why would a starving student be inclined to pay even the educational price for Delphi when he can use Java for free with no restrictions on creating apps that will buy beer. I recently bought Photoshop CS2. Since I'm a student I got the Academic pricing. (Whatever possessed me to return to school in my late 30s? So far about the only benefit I've gotten is a great price on CS2!) I was really surprised to read the CS2 academic license. It boils down to "There ain't no difference between this and the pro license, except the price you paid. Welcome to the Adobe family!" I can sell my work commercially (well, I could if I had any talent), and later I can upgrade to new versions, even at the Pro SKU, with no penalty. Adobe approaches academic licenses with an eye towards where the user is in their professional life, and winning them over as a long-term customer, rather than treating them as a low-profit sale that doesn't deserve an unrestrictive license. This news group is probably chock-full of people who got their start with Delphi via Turbo Pascal at school, back in the day. That's where I became a fan. Back to top Joe Hendricks Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? Steve Trefethen (Delphi R&D) wrote: Quote: Since the announced spin out there have been numerous internal conversations about how the approach of getting our tools into schools need to be reexamined. Excellent - thanks for telling us ! JoeH Back to top Dan Barclay Guest Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi in schools? This "property" is not restricted to programming languages, though certainly that is a prevalant place to find it. As an ingunneering student in the late '60's FORTRAN was the name. I've found you can write FORTRAN code in lots of languages<g>. But, the point is that getting tools in front of folks while they're forming their talents is a *very* important asset. Another example: There are any number of brands of oscilloscopes. Wanna guess why I bought a Tektronix?? Think it might have had something to do with the long hours I spent in front of 'em in electronics labs? I wanted one at home. I looked at a bunch, new and used on eBay. I didn't know much about the other critters but I was familiar with Tek, even though I was now buying a portable digital storage scope and the scopes I used in the lab were analog requiring their own cart. Dan "Bryce K. Nielsen" <bryce (AT) sysonyx (DOT) com> wrote in message news:44184ce2$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: I don't get this one. Everytime I suggest that Delphi needs to be in more universities, it gets shot down saying there's no profit in it. I tried stressing this on the last Delphi tour but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. Let me elaborate with my own personal story. I went to BYU for college and their first 2 years of courses were Delphi (141, 142, 232 were pascal/Delphi classes). It was effectively the first real language I had learned, it got me into the workforce quickly, and I've been using Delphi for 10 years now, all because of my schooling. When D2006 was released, I was curious to see how it was received at my old college. I went to the bookstore and to my dismay, it wasn't available for sale. I asked an associate about it, they had never heard of Delphi, and he had to ask his manager. His manager thought for a minute then said, "Oh yes, Delphi. We don't order those anymore except through special order." Why is this the case? Why is Delphi not in *every* college bookstore across the globe? Why are not more colleges TEACHING Delphi? BYU has since changed it's cirriculum to be java only (I hear they took out their C++ classes too, those were the 300-400 level classes). I personally think that one of Delphi's greatest strengths is that it is so easy to learn and *should* be taught to people wanting to learn programming langauges. I can't tell you how easy it was to switch from Delphi to VB, C#, Java, etc. However I can imagine that going from VB to Delphi would be rather tricky. It's got the best basic skills out there, and at the same time is one of the easiest languages to learn. One more reason that I think DevCo should start stressing Delphi in acedemia is for "future" workforce. One reason I try to promote Delphi so much is because it was the first language taught to me. As new students emerge from schools, they will be pushing and advocating the langauges they learn in school. It's the whole "grassroots" campaign, and IMHO it starts in schools. Maybe even HighSchools. -BKN Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next Page 1 of 8   Jump to: Select a forum C++ Builder Newsgroups----------------C++ BuilderC++ Builder (ActiveX)C++ Builder (Announcements)C++ Builder (Command Line Tools)C++ Builder DatabasesC++ Builder Databases (ADO)C++ Builder Databases (Desktop)C++ Builder Databases (InterBase Express)C++ Builder Databases (Multi-Tier)C++ Builder Databases (SQL Servers)C++ Builder (Graphics)C++ Builder (IDE)C++ Builder (Internet)C++ Builder (Internet Socket)C++ Builder (Internet Web)C++ Builder (Jobs)C++ Builder (Language)C++ Builder (Language C++)C++ Builder (Compatibility with MFC)C++ Builder (Native API)C++ Builder (Non-Technical)C++ Builder (Students)C++ Builder (Third Party Tools)C++ Builder (Upgrade)C++ Builder (VCL)C++ Builder (VCL Components Usage)C++ Builder (VCL Components Development)C++ Builder (VCL Usage)C++ Builder (WinAPI)C++ Builder Installation Delphi Newsgroups----------------Delphi (General)Delphi ActiveX Controls UsageDelphi ActiveX Controls DevelopmentDelphi As400Delphi DatabasesDelphi Databases (ADO)Delphi Databases (dbExpress)Delphi Databases (Desktop)Delphi Databases (InterBase Express)Delphi Databases (Multi-Tier)Delphi Databases (SQL Servers)Delphi DeploymentDelphi GraphicsDelphi IDEDelphi InternationalizationDelphi InternetDelphi Internet Isapi-WebBrokerDelphi Internet WebSnapDelphi Internet WinsockDelphi JobsDelphi Language BASMDelphi Language ObjectPascalDelphi Model Driven Architecture (General)Delphi Model Driven Architecture (Third Party)Delphi MultimediaDelphi Native APIDelphi Non-TechnicalDelphi ObjectPascalDelphi OLE AutomationDelphi OO designDelphi OpenToolsAPIDelphi Reporting-ChartingDelphi RTLDelphi StudentsDelphi TeamSourceDelphi Thirdparty ToolsDelphi Thirdparty Tools (General)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (IntraWeb)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (RaveReports)Delphi UpgradeDelphi VCLDelphi VCL ComponentsDelphi VCL Components UsingDelphi VCL Components WritingDelphi WebServices SOAPDelphi WinAPIDelphi XMLDelphi Installationcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misccomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usagecomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writingcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.databasescomp.lang.pascal.delphi.misccomp.sources.delphi JBuilder Newsgroups----------------JBuilderJBuilder AnnouncementsJBuilder Applet IssuesJBuilder As400JBuilder CompilerJBuilder CORBA/RMIJBuilder DatabasesJBuilder DB SwingJBuilder DebuggerJBuilder DeploymentJBuilder DocumentationJBuilder EnterpriseJBuilder HandheldJBuilder IDEJBuilder JavaJBuilder JavaAPIJBuilder Java LanguageJBuilder Java SwingJBuilder Java BeansJBuilder Java Beans UsageJBuilder Java Beans DevelopmentJBuilder JBCLJBuilder JDataStoreJBuilder JobsJBuilder LinuxJBuilder MacintoshJBuilder & MobileSetJBuilder MultiLingual AppsJBuilder Non-TechnicalJBuilder OpenToolsJBuilder Servlets (JSP)JBuilder StudentsJBuilder Team DevelopmentJBuilder Thirdparty ToolsJBuilder UpgradeJBuilder Installation InterBase Newsgroups----------------InterBaseInterBase Bug DiscussionInterBase GeneralInterBase IBConsoleInterBase OpenSourceInterBase ReplicationInterBase SQLInterBase ThirdpartyInterBase Installation Miscellaneous Borland Newsgroups----------------AppCenterAppServerEnteraVisiBroker  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.