BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Delphi job market - observation Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Serge Dosyukov Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:35 pm    Post subject: Delphi job market - observation Hi, this is just personal observation in past two weeks: recently I've got some certification as MCP and off course published this information ;o) in a past few weeks I've got about 5-10 calls for Delphi positions... about half of them is a conversion of existing Delphi application to C#. it is not just .Net conversion but to VS conversion. there is no particular reason why people want to convert to C# other then (so far...): - no posibility to maintain application - very small market for professionals in US (you can find many willing to come here, but not currently available here) - marketing push - people seems to be more convince in MS way of doing things - cost - for some reasons it is appear that it is smaller cost to do thing in C# than it is in Delphi - this is a big surprise for me <8^) - increasing demand on some markets for SMART and POCKET devices - hey, who do not want to walk around warehouse with PDA ;O) You will say that it is all known for years, but it looks link there is some movements in a water here which are not yet clear Now, backet for stones is on the left, but reality is rushing in a face ;O) Back to top Craig Stuntz [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation Serge Dosyukov wrote: Quote: - increasing demand on some markets for SMART and POCKET devices - hey, who do not want to walk around warehouse with PDA ;O) That's why we did our first C# project. We might have used Delphi for ..NET if it had been released significantly earlier. We might still use it later on. But of the reasons you give this is / was the most compelling AFAICS. -- Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz All the great TeamB service you've come to expect plus (New!) Irish Tin Whistle tips: http://learningtowhistle.blogspot.com Back to top Martin Waldenburg Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation Serge Dosyukov wrote: Quote: recently I've got some certification as MCP a girl of nine years from pakistan got it too. Martin Back to top Crazy Horse's crazier lit Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation "Serge Dosyukov" <serge [AT] dragonsoftru [DoT] com> wrote Quote: recently I've got some certification as MCP and off course... Militant C Police? -- Download Blackbird Crow Raven's book "STILL CASTING SHADOWS: Two American Families 1620-2006" (.exe and .pdf): http://cc.borland.com/ccweb.exe/listing?id=23106 Back to top Eric Schreiber Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation Serge Dosyukov wrote: Quote: - no posibility to maintain application - very small market for professionals in US (you can find many willing to come here, but not currently available here) There's no question that the Delphi technical pool is smaller than for some other languages. My own personal experience doesn't agree with the 'small market' theory though. I spent the last three years trying to find a Delphi programming job in the Chicago area. Ads for available positions were very few, and as I recall I went on only three interviews that were Delphi specific. Third time was a charm :) Quote: cost - for some reasons it is appear that it is smaller cost to do thing in C# than it is in Delphi- this is a big surprise for me This would be a suprise for me as well. Even if you allow that C# programming is cheaper than Delphi programming (that sounds absurd to me, but for the sake of argument...), surely it's much more expensive to convert an existing Delphi app to C# than it is to maintain it in Delphi. Quote: increasing demand on some markets for SMART and POCKET devices - hey who do not want to walk around warehouse with PDA That one makes some sense to me, but if the recent movement with a Delphi CF demo/beta is any indicator, that playing field will soon be level again. I know when I pointed it out to my boss, he was *very* interested, much more than I expected. Back to top Richard Grossman Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation The LA Delphi User Group recently received and announced a request for 2 Delphi programmers to work locally as W-2's fulltime at $120k/year and there were no takers. Maybe you should move to LA... Back to top John Wester [Group W] Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation In article <42e00eee$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, rgrossmanDELETE-THIS- [email]PART (AT) techIII (DOT) com[/email] says... Quote: The LA Delphi User Group recently received and announced a request for 2 Delphi programmers to work locally as W-2's fulltime at $120k/year and there were no takers. Maybe you should move to LA... Or employers need to reconsider "no remote work". Call it "home- shoring" or "in-shoring". It's worth a thought. I've been working in one of those relationships for quite sometime with a mininum of hiccups. -- John Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts Back to top Atle Smelvær Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation Quote: cost - for some reasons it is appear that it is smaller cost to do thing in C# than it is in Delphi- this is a big surprise for me This would be a suprise for me as well. Even if you allow that C# programming is cheaper than Delphi programming (that sounds absurd to me, but for the sake of argument...), surely it's much more expensive to convert an existing Delphi app to C# than it is to maintain it in Delphi. Maybe Delphi developers cost more because there are few of them and they know it. And maybe C# developers are cheap... :) Back to top Matt Jacobs Guest Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation Richard Grossman <rgrossmanDELETE-THIS-PART (AT) techIII (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Maybe you should move to LA... Why would you wish such a thing upon a person? ;-) Back to top Larry Drews Guest Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation "Atle Smelvær" <atle (AT) datagrafikk (DOT) no> wrote in news:42e01480 @newsgroups.borland.com: Quote: cost - for some reasons it is appear that it is smaller cost to do thing in C# than it is in Delphi- this is a big surprise for me This would be a suprise for me as well. Even if you allow that C# programming is cheaper than Delphi programming (that sounds absurd to me, but for the sake of argument...), surely it's much more expensive to convert an existing Delphi app to C# than it is to maintain it in Delphi. Maybe Delphi developers cost more because there are few of them and they know it. And maybe C# developers are cheap... :) Of course it could be because Delphi programmers are more productive than C# programmers? No, it couldn't be that.<g> Back to top John Jacobson Guest Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation "Crazy Horse's crazier little brother" <cshannonKeinSpamBitteMitZuckerDrauf (AT) d4sw (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Militant C Police? Microsoft Certified Police? Back to top Wayne Niddery [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:14 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation John Wester [Group W] wrote: Quote: Or employers need to reconsider "no remote work". Call it "home- shoring" or "in-shoring". It's worth a thought. I've been working in one of those relationships for quite sometime with a mininum of hiccups. It will happen. I've been able to do most of my work from home. Most of my customers are still local, but not all. I was doing some consulting for a firm in L.A. and another in Calgary, another in Detroit. I expect this to become much more common over the next couple of years. -- Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com) RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html Those who disdain wealth as a worthy goal for an individual or a society seem not to realize that wealth is the only thing that can prevent poverty. - Thomas Sowell Back to top Erwien Saputra Guest Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation Craig Stuntz [TeamB] wrote: Quote: That's why we did our first C# project. We might have used Delphi for .NET if it had been released significantly earlier. We might still use it later on. But of the reasons you give this is / was the most compelling AFAICS. Market is a hard thing to predict. Borland kept on saying that their research told them that they were not late in supporting .Net. People were shouting in this NG that they needed .Net support. It may be that people in this NG represented only a small fraction of all Borland customer, but I got the impression that people in this NG are impacted most by Borland's decision. Same thing happen with Win64 support, several vocal people voiced their concerns and the need is realized (Danny's interview on 24 hours of Delphi). Unfortunately he said that he needs to convince some people at Borland. I sure hope that they will not late with Win64 support. I sure hope that whoever make decision at Borland asked the right questions to the right people..... Sometimes, I felt Borland is more reactive than proactive. Probably they do proactive in some areas, unfortunately those areas do not affect me. I have to mention that recently they are getting better in communicating their direction. Wien. Back to top John Jacobson aka Captain Guest Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation Serge Dosyukov <"serge [AT] dragonsoftru [DoT] com"> wrote in message <42dfeae8$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com> Quote: - no posibility to maintain application - very small market for professionals in US (you can find many willing to come here, but not currently available here) Ah, the fallacy of the unused market, a very common economic fallacy. It isn't the size of the market that determines one's welfare in selling/buying in that market, it is the relationship of supply to demand. ( see my blog at http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/archive/2005/02/07/FallacyUnusedMarket.aspx ). Quote: - marketing push - people seems to be more convince in MS way of doing things Nothing new. This has always been true. I remember when the big contest was between Borland C++ and Microsoft C++. There was once a time when Borland C++ was the most used development system in the world, then over time, MSFT won the marketing game, part through the commonly held belief that their development tools would always have an advantage over Borland's because MSFT wrote the operating system. Businesses love to bet on MSFT against everyone else because they idolize Bill Gates and want to hitch their wagon to a "winner" like him. Borland has survived for years and years despite this strong bias in favor of MSFT, and through most of those years they did not have the hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank they now have either. Quote: - cost - for some reasons it is appear that it is smaller cost to do thing in C# than it is in Delphi - this is a big surprise for me <8^) This might be true for a lot of firms. Not because C# is a better language than Delphi, but because you can find C# programmers cheaply who will work for a pittance. The firm's business requirements might be simple enough that they can staff their projects with beginners and mid-range programmers who are eager to get more real-world experience in C#, whereas if they do it in Delphi they face reduced supply at the entry and mid-range level because these programmers tend to follow the herd in an attempt to further their own careers. Quote: - increasing demand on some markets for SMART and POCKET devices - hey, who do not want to walk around warehouse with PDA ;O) I bet this is a field that Borland thought it had covered with Java and C++. Of course, now their Java tool has been Eclipsed, and their C++ tool is awaiting resuscitation in DeXter. But this non-coverage is probably just a temporary thing. All signs point toward Borland starting to do something about this. Quote: You will say that it is all known for years, but it looks link there is some movements in a water here which are not yet clear Personally, I don't see anything particularly ominous stirring. Just as developers are fickle enough to completely abandon the leading C++ tool in a matter of a few short years, like they did with BC++, so too they are fickle enough to return en masse to something else that Borland might offer. It all depends on what the next CEO decides to do, because as we have seen from Phillipe Kahn, Pizzaman and Dale, the strategies pursued by the guy at the top can make all the difference in the world, in both getting good products out the door and in attracting and keeping top talent. If I thought there was a God I'd pray to Him to stick Philippe Kahn back in the CEO slot at Borland, and then lure Anders Helsjberg back. That would be a dream team. Corporate America would notice that, and the tech press would hail it as a real coup. But regardless of that I think things could be looking very good for Delphi for the next few years, for several reasons: 1) the BDS is looking to be a very good rival for VS once all the kinks are ironed out and the refactoring gets bumped up. Hell, I like using D2005 more than D7 now, and this is the first version of the BDS I actually had a chance to use (since I do Win32 programming). 2) JBuilder is no longer the top money maker, meaning Delphi is Borland's prize bull once again. We should expect therefore that more attention will be paid to Delphi than in the past several years. If Delphi can then progress at the rate JBuilder progressed, we should see it easily pose a formidable challenge to MSFT hegemony in the Windows development world in a few short years. 3) Delphi is absorbing other languages at Borland, like C# and C++, which greatly expands its appeal and likely appeal in the future. In the past, Borland had concentrated its multi-operating-system strategies in C++ and Java, but now it looks like Delphi would be the ideal vehicle for those strategies (especially with C++ coming on board). -- Everything in this post is mere opinion. It might be very well formed opinion based on an uncanny grasp of the facts, but it remains opinion nevertheless. Here's where you'll find Absolute Truth: http://blogs.slcdug.org/jjacobson/ Posted with Reader3000-BETA 0.9.4.1007 Back to top Angra Mainyu Guest Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi job market - observation "John Jacobson aka Captain Jake"wrote Quote: Serge Dosyukov wrote - cost - for some reasons it is appear that it is smaller cost to do thing in C# than it is in Delphi - this is a big surprise for me <8^) This might be true for a lot of firms. Not because C# is a better language than Delphi, but because you can find C# programmers cheaply who will work for a pittance. The firm's business requirements might be simple enough that they can staff their projects with beginners and mid-range programmers who are eager to get more real-world experience in C#, whereas if they do it in Delphi they face reduced supply at the entry and mid-range level because these programmers tend to follow the herd in an attempt to further their own careers. Capt'n - I gotta say, "What a load of unadulterated BS"! IMO Serge is making the point that many (no not those in the Delphi world) say that development in C# aka .NET in managed code environment is more efficient thus costs less than Delphi. Now there are a couple of things to consider about the Delphi side of that statement, does he mean Delphi Win32 or Delphi for .NET. If he means Delphi Win32 we could argue forever over technical reasons why people increasingly choose C# aka .NET over tools like Delphi Win32. If he means the language Delphi for .NET vs C# then I for one can't make a case for why Delphi the language is markedly efficiently superior to C#. The reason I slammed you was that instead of even attempting to argue the technical merits of the comparison you immediately dove to the bottom to demonize and berate C# programmers as a herd of desperate incompetents willing to work for a pittance. And then do the same for why there seems to be a shortage of highly competent Delphi programmers. And yes I do recognize that we are discussing this in a very partisan NG and my argument falls on ears deafened by the loud applause for your POV, nevertheless Shame on you! Quote: If I thought there was a God I'd pray to Him to stick Philippe Kahn back in the CEO slot at Borland, and then lure Anders Helsjberg back. That would be a dream team. Corporate America would notice that, and the tech press would hail it as a real coup. Yeah, when pigs fly. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next Page 1 of 3   Jump to: Select a forum C++ Builder Newsgroups----------------C++ BuilderC++ Builder (ActiveX)C++ Builder (Announcements)C++ Builder (Command Line Tools)C++ Builder DatabasesC++ Builder Databases (ADO)C++ Builder Databases (Desktop)C++ Builder Databases (InterBase Express)C++ Builder Databases (Multi-Tier)C++ Builder Databases (SQL Servers)C++ Builder (Graphics)C++ Builder (IDE)C++ Builder (Internet)C++ Builder (Internet Socket)C++ Builder (Internet Web)C++ Builder (Jobs)C++ Builder (Language)C++ Builder (Language C++)C++ Builder (Compatibility with MFC)C++ Builder (Native API)C++ Builder (Non-Technical)C++ Builder (Students)C++ Builder (Third Party Tools)C++ Builder (Upgrade)C++ Builder (VCL)C++ Builder (VCL Components Usage)C++ Builder (VCL Components Development)C++ Builder (VCL Usage)C++ Builder (WinAPI)C++ Builder Installation Delphi Newsgroups----------------Delphi (General)Delphi ActiveX Controls UsageDelphi ActiveX Controls DevelopmentDelphi As400Delphi DatabasesDelphi Databases (ADO)Delphi Databases (dbExpress)Delphi Databases (Desktop)Delphi Databases (InterBase Express)Delphi Databases (Multi-Tier)Delphi Databases (SQL Servers)Delphi DeploymentDelphi GraphicsDelphi IDEDelphi InternationalizationDelphi InternetDelphi Internet Isapi-WebBrokerDelphi Internet WebSnapDelphi Internet WinsockDelphi JobsDelphi Language BASMDelphi Language ObjectPascalDelphi Model Driven Architecture (General)Delphi Model Driven Architecture (Third Party)Delphi MultimediaDelphi Native APIDelphi Non-TechnicalDelphi ObjectPascalDelphi OLE AutomationDelphi OO designDelphi OpenToolsAPIDelphi Reporting-ChartingDelphi RTLDelphi StudentsDelphi TeamSourceDelphi Thirdparty ToolsDelphi Thirdparty Tools (General)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (IntraWeb)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (RaveReports)Delphi UpgradeDelphi VCLDelphi VCL ComponentsDelphi VCL Components UsingDelphi VCL Components WritingDelphi WebServices SOAPDelphi WinAPIDelphi XMLDelphi Installationcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misccomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usagecomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writingcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.databasescomp.lang.pascal.delphi.misccomp.sources.delphi JBuilder Newsgroups----------------JBuilderJBuilder AnnouncementsJBuilder Applet IssuesJBuilder As400JBuilder CompilerJBuilder CORBA/RMIJBuilder DatabasesJBuilder DB SwingJBuilder DebuggerJBuilder DeploymentJBuilder DocumentationJBuilder EnterpriseJBuilder HandheldJBuilder IDEJBuilder JavaJBuilder JavaAPIJBuilder Java LanguageJBuilder Java SwingJBuilder Java BeansJBuilder Java Beans UsageJBuilder Java Beans DevelopmentJBuilder JBCLJBuilder JDataStoreJBuilder JobsJBuilder LinuxJBuilder MacintoshJBuilder & MobileSetJBuilder MultiLingual AppsJBuilder Non-TechnicalJBuilder OpenToolsJBuilder Servlets (JSP)JBuilder StudentsJBuilder Team DevelopmentJBuilder Thirdparty ToolsJBuilder UpgradeJBuilder Installation InterBase Newsgroups----------------InterBaseInterBase Bug DiscussionInterBase GeneralInterBase IBConsoleInterBase OpenSourceInterBase ReplicationInterBase SQLInterBase ThirdpartyInterBase Installation Miscellaneous Borland Newsgroups----------------AppCenterAppServerEnteraVisiBroker  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.