BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Delphi licenses question. Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Gerald Me Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:14 am    Post subject: Delphi licenses question. I am using Delphi 5 since 1999. I brought the products in Hong Kong and use it in China since our R&D department is in China. This is quite common for a Hong Kong based company. I had (and have) read the license agreement very carefully and see nothing in the agreement that the prouct I brought could not be used in China. Since 2004, I keep receiving call from Borland China telling me that I do not have a proper license. I explain to them that the product was purhcased in Hong Kong and I can gave them all the proof. (The CD, the invoice, etc.) But I was told that because Borland had change its company policy (I don't know since when) and I must buy the product in China. I also explained to them that I am using Delphi 5 which the new license policy (if any) in the later version may not be applied to me, but was ignored. Last month, representative of Borland in China called two of my customers in China and telling them that I am using illegal copy of Delphi. I was very surprise Borland will do that until I was confirmed by Borland themself that it was their staff who made the call. I do not mind to buy the necessary licenses if I am wrong. But Borland have to tell me in which paragraph in the license agreement in Delphi 5 indicating that I cannot use a product purchased in other country. (BTW, Hong Kong is part of China after 1997.) And Borland cannot use any illegal method to threaten me or my customer. Otherwise, I would have to agree on what Borland is accusing and on their handling method. I write because Borland is still threatening me and I am very frustrated. I also want to clarify if I have miss some points in the license agreement which Borland China have never able to show me. Back to top Marc Rohloff [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:14 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. On Wed, 24 May 2006 09:47:12 +0900, Gerald Me wrote: Quote: Last month, representative of Borland in China called two of my customers in China and telling them that I am using illegal copy of Delphi. I was very surprise Borland will do that until I was confirmed by Borland themself that it was their staff who made the call. I don't know anything about Chinese or Hong-Kong law (apart from the fact that I thought they had no copyright enforcement in China), however I would be surprised if them calling your clients is acceptable or allowable. I would call a lawyer and find out where you stand. -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff -at- myrealbox -dot- com Back to top Bruce McGee Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. Marc Rohloff [TeamB] wrote: Quote: I don't know anything about Chinese or Hong-Kong law (apart from the fact that I thought they had no copyright enforcement in China), however I would be surprised if them calling your clients is acceptable or allowable. I would call a lawyer and find out where you stand. I would also talk to Borland's head office in the US. I would be seriously unimpressed if any vendor demanded that I retroactively repurchase licenses based on some vague "change in company policy" and outright pissed if they resorted to this kind of extortion. How do they know who your customers are anyway? Unless there's more to the story, I think someone over stepped their authority, and it sounds like it's easy for you to prove that you have a legal license. -- Regards, Bruce McGee Glooscap Software Back to top Gerald Me Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Rohloff [TeamB]" <"on request"> Newsgroups: borland.public.delphi.non-technical Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. Quote: On Wed, 24 May 2006 09:47:12 +0900, Gerald Me wrote: I don't know anything about Chinese or Hong-Kong law (apart from the fact that I thought they had no copyright enforcement in China), -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff -at- myrealbox -dot- com China do have copyright law and trying very hard to protect them. It is a fact that the legal system in China, particular in understanding of IP, need to be improved. It is also a fact that IP infringe is quite serious here. But that does not means no one in China respect copyright nor give them any right to assume all are theft. However, Hong Kong is very different. Hong Kong is much better in protecting IP. Hong Kong use Common Law which is basically the same as in England. In my case, they know I have licenses except they could not accept those that I have are proper. I have heard that many foreign invested company (Singaporian, Taiwan) in China having the same exprience (told by the repesentative from Borland) and also complaining. But I do not know how many and I wish to know. Back to top Gerald Me Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. I do not know how they know it. At first I did not believe it was from Borland and I throught it was some stupid joke. I only know it until my customer compliant. (One of my customer was very upset by the call and demand our official explaination.) We ask our customers to help us trace the caller (who call a few times) phone number. And the result is shocking. We complianed to Borland. They no longer call our custmers. (I had thought about sueing the company but I do not want to go into any legal battle unless it is really unbearable.) Recently we still received call from Borland requiring (threatening is a more exact description) us to buy a Delphi license from Borland China. At first they want me to register. It was true that I did not register Delphi 5 in 1999 and I never did. I thought registration is optional. I told Borland I can give them the original CDs. (I am a long fans of Delphi. I have Delphi 1, 2, 3, and 5. and Kylix.) They insist I have to register. Although I do not believe I have to register (it was not a requirement in 1999) but I finally agree to do so. So I try to register but I could not. Registration procedure in the Delphi 5 installation disk bring me to a site which is no longer exist. I then called Borland to ask them how I can register. This time they told me that I have to buy it in China even I registered. This is all the stories and nothing hidden. I am very frustrated so I decide to post this into the newsgroup. "Bruce McGee" <bmcgee (AT) glooscap (DOT) com> wrote in message news:xn0emllyz1sjdrc001 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Marc Rohloff [TeamB] wrote: How do they know who your customers are anyway? Unless there's more to the story, I think someone over stepped their authority, and it sounds like it's easy for you to prove that you have a legal license. -- Regards, Bruce McGee Glooscap Software Back to top Alex Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. I do not sure it is so easy to prove license legality There is part from Delphi5 license which Borland China may use for treat. " This Software is subject to U.S. Commerce Department export restrictions, and is intended for use in the country into which Inprise sold it (or in the EEC, if sold into the EEC). " I can only see one way to legalize license (without a buy new one) Due to HongKong is part of China since 1997 so licenses intended to HongKong can be legally used in China. Alex "Bruce McGee" <bmcgee (AT) glooscap (DOT) com> wrote in message news:xn0emllyz1sjdrc001 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Marc Rohloff [TeamB] wrote: I don't know anything about Chinese or Hong-Kong law (apart from the fact that I thought they had no copyright enforcement in China), however I would be surprised if them calling your clients is acceptable or allowable. I would call a lawyer and find out where you stand. I would also talk to Borland's head office in the US. I would be seriously unimpressed if any vendor demanded that I retroactively repurchase licenses based on some vague "change in company policy" and outright pissed if they resorted to this kind of extortion. How do they know who your customers are anyway? Unless there's more to the story, I think someone over stepped their authority, and it sounds like it's easy for you to prove that you have a legal license. -- Regards, Bruce McGee Glooscap Software Back to top John Shyer Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. Gerald, This is outrageous. Here in California, where I believe, Borland resides, we have a cause of action called "Interference with Contractual Relationship". I do not know Chinese law and I am not licensed to practice anywhere in China, consequently, I am not qualified to give you legal advice. However as general NONLEGAL advice, I have found in my practice that often individuals or business organizations will push other individuals or smaller business organizations well pass the limit permissible by law, with the idea that even if a few fight them in court and win, they are still ahead because of all of the countless others who do not put up a fight. The advice offered you in another response to seek a lawyer and find out what remedies may be available to you is the best advice. Do that and be prepared to file a law suit if necessary. If you do not like what the first lawyer says, consult with two or three more until you have a good understanding of the law and what remedies are available to you. Good Luck and Don't Give Up! John Shyer, Attorney at Law and "wannabe" software developer "Gerald Me" <gerald (AT) netgarment (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4473bb29$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: I am using Delphi 5 since 1999. I brought the products in Hong Kong and use it in China since our R&D department is in China. This is quite common for a Hong Kong based company. I had (and have) read the license agreement very carefully and see nothing in the agreement that the prouct I brought could not be used in China. Since 2004, I keep receiving call from Borland China telling me that I do not have a proper license. I explain to them that the product was purhcased in Hong Kong and I can gave them all the proof. (The CD, the invoice, etc.) But I was told that because Borland had change its company policy (I don't know since when) and I must buy the product in China. I also explained to them that I am using Delphi 5 which the new license policy (if any) in the later version may not be applied to me, but was ignored. Last month, representative of Borland in China called two of my customers in China and telling them that I am using illegal copy of Delphi. I was very surprise Borland will do that until I was confirmed by Borland themself that it was their staff who made the call. I do not mind to buy the necessary licenses if I am wrong. But Borland have to tell me in which paragraph in the license agreement in Delphi 5 indicating that I cannot use a product purchased in other country. (BTW, Hong Kong is part of China after 1997.) And Borland cannot use any illegal method to threaten me or my customer. Otherwise, I would have to agree on what Borland is accusing and on their handling method. I write because Borland is still threatening me and I am very frustrated. I also want to clarify if I have miss some points in the license agreement which Borland China have never able to show me. Back to top Marc Rohloff [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:12:52 +0900, Gerald Me wrote: Quote: We complianed to Borland. They no longer call our custmers. (I had thought about sueing the company but I do not want to go into any legal battle unless it is really unbearable.) You may get a long way just by writing them a letter demanding that they stop harassing you or your clients or you will bring a case against them. Send it registered, even on a lawyers letter head if possible. You might even demand that they call your customers and apologize. So far waving a big stick has always worked for me. -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff -at- myrealbox -dot- com Back to top Chris Burrows Guest Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. "Wayne Niddery [TeamB]" <wniddery (AT) chaffaci (DOT) on.ca> wrote in message news:44750b54$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Again, as others have advised, you need to consult a lawyer to be sure. That said, my belief is: By legally purchasing your copy in Hong Kong, by definition, it means the copy was exported for sale and use *only* in Hong Kong (otherwise it could not have been a legal purchase). I must have misunderstood what you are saying. Are you suggesting that it is illegal for me to use my copy of Delphi, which was purchased in Australia, that is installed on my laptop, while I am travelling overseas? Or is Hong Kong / China different? -- Chris Burrows CFB Software http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp Back to top Wayne Niddery [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. Chris Burrows wrote: Quote: I must have misunderstood what you are saying. Are you suggesting that it is illegal for me to use my copy of Delphi, which was purchased in Australia, that is installed on my laptop, while I am travelling overseas? Or is Hong Kong / China different? While travelling, no, there's no way they could make such a restriction stick. The stated restriction does seem to imply, however, that if you *move* - become a resident in another country, then technically you need to by a new version of Delphi. The is not its intention (see below) and I personally have serious doubts that this would actually stand up in court - at least here in N.A. For example, if I move to the U.S. I really doubt my Canadian-bought copy would be illegal for me to continue using there. If this was really the case, then they could equally make a case that I cannot use my Canadian copy to perform work for my American customers - since it is supposedly only for *use* in Canada. Well, I have news - I've done lots of work for American clients, and the work I produce for some of my Canadian clients are also, in turn, sold to their American customers, so let's see if anyone comes after me. <g> It's clear to me what that clause is for: It is intended to prevent people from deliberately purchasing from one country because, perhaps, they can get a better price, even though they live in another country. In Gerald's case, that means, *while living in China*, he cannot buy a copy from the Hong Kong office and must purchase from the Chinese office. In my case, I can only buy from Borland Canada, not from the U.S. It is NOT intended to punish people that legitimately move *after* purchasing a copy legally. Therefore (IMO), the action of Borland's Chinese office is clearly out-of-line in Gerald's case and they should leave him alone; they do not understand the purpose of the clause as described above. The issue is whether, under Chinese jurisprudence, they can get away with it or not. Hopefully Gerald can successfully fight it. -- Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com) RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html "The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory." - Paul Fix Back to top Graham Guest Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. Wayne Niddery [TeamB] wrote: Quote: It's clear to me what that clause is for: It is intended to prevent people from deliberately purchasing from one country because, perhaps, they can get a better price, even though they live in another country. In Gerald's case, that means, *while living in China*, he cannot buy a copy from the Hong Kong office and must purchase from the Chinese office. In my case, I can only buy from Borland Canada, not from the U.S. That may indeed be the purpose, but it it legally or ethically sound? By what rationale does Borland have to say where I can use the software? Surely this is one of those inalienable rights of the consumer. Would it make sense if I bought a CD and it came with the proviso that I could only listen to it in the Greater Toronto Area? That could certainly be stated, but by no stretch of the imagination would it be enforceable. Imagine some poor sod who, while living in Japan, buys Delphi 1 to pursue his hobby of programming. He buys it from the U.S., simply because he doesn't want the Japanese version -- and his version of Windows is English-only anyway. He continues to support Borland, buying Delphi 3 and 5 in the same way (and, by the way, evangelizing the hell out of Delphi to all and sundry). Then, moving back to Canada, he has the audacity to assume that he can upgrade to BDS 2006, rather than buying a full retail version. If Borland denied him that upgrade path, you can be sure that guy would be concentrating on learning Visual Studio right now. In Gerald's case, it seems even more clear-cut. Hong Kong reverted to China in 1997, nine years ago. Legally, Hong Kong IS part of China. Could Borland Canada tell you that a copy of BDS 2006 you bought in Vancouver cannot be used in Toronto? Absurd! One could argue that the proper way to deal with the issue is simply not to support that company by buying its products, but most of us here are long-time Delphi users, and I think that we need to let Borland know that such tactics are unacceptable BEFORE they poison the atmosphere. (For the record, I have little doubt that most Borland employees, being programmers themselves and reasonable people, would agree with me.) But this pales besides the tactics that Gerald says Borland China have used against him, interfering with the operation of his business, basically using extortion to make him buy more licenses. We haven't seen any proof of this, nor a response from Borland, but it's a very serious charge, and I would really like to know that Borland International (is that the name?) is investigating with an eye, if Gerald's story proves true, to at LEAST dismissing those involved. Then again, maybe Gerald is a Microsoft stooge, trying to spread FUD about Borland to prevent BDS from taking off (as it rightfully should) and crushing Visual Studio . I'm quite willing to entertain that possibility too. On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog. Regardless, I'd like to know that Borland is a friend of programmers, not their worst nightmare! (I'll add the obligatory bit of optimism that DevCo will once again put us front and center, when they are on their feet.) Back to top Chris Burrows Guest Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. "Graham" <gramie2 (AT) email (DOT) com> wrote in message news:447537bf$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Imagine some poor sod who, while living in Japan, buys Delphi 1 to pursue his hobby of programming. He buys it from the U.S., simply because he doesn't want the Japanese version -- and his version of Windows is English-only anyway. He continues to support Borland, buying Delphi 3 and 5 in the same way (and, by the way, evangelizing the hell out of Delphi to all and sundry). Then, moving back to Canada, he has the audacity to assume that he can upgrade to BDS 2006, rather than buying a full retail version. If Borland denied him that upgrade path, you can be sure that guy would be concentrating on learning Visual Studio right now. You wouldn't be that poor sod by any chance, would you? Quote: Regardless, I'd like to know that Borland is a friend of programmers, not their worst nightmare! (I'll add the obligatory bit of optimism that DevCo will once again put us front and center, when they are on their feet.) Now there's a great marketing idea to kickstart the new kid on the block! How about something snappy like the 'DevCo No-Nonsense Licensing Agreement' ;-) -- Chris Burrows CFB Software http://www.cfbsoftware.com Back to top Gerald Me Guest Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. "Graham" <gramie2 (AT) email (DOT) com> wrote in message news:447537bf$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Wayne Niddery [TeamB] wrote: Then again, maybe Gerald is a Microsoft stooge, trying to spread FUD about Borland to prevent BDS from taking off (as it rightfully should) and crushing Visual Studio . I'm quite willing to entertain that possibility too. On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog. :) Believe me, all I said is true. My phone is recorded when I talked to Borland, particular in the case which they called my customers. However, I have not yet received a legal letter beside harassing and sometimes threatening phone call. I am (was) a big fan of Delphi and all my works is in Delphi. I have not yet switch to .Net nor Java, although lately I start to considering it. As a software business, it is not that easy to switch developing tools after so many years of work as you may all know the reason. I am kind of hooked. I could not agree on buying licenses from Borland China not only because of money. I can upgrade to Delphi 2006. After all, it have been 7 years that I did not upgrade. To show my support, I could and am willing to. But I just don't think they are right. I cannot agree on the (hidden) license term. (Imagine that you pay for a software, use it for 7 years and one day all a sudden it is illegal.) I also cannot agree on harassing and threatening. I just cannot agree this is a proper way to do business. Even I have to buy, I will buy it direct from Borland US. But definitely not now unless they apologize. May be the new owner can do it better. PS. I did not upgrade after version 5 mainly because many features in the later version is not what I am looking for. With the support of many great VCL in the markets, I find Delphi is a very effective developing tools for Rich Client Application. Two major features I have been waiting for is the support of Unicode and Cross Platform. Back to top Uffe Kousgaard Guest Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. "Chris Burrows" <cfbsoftware (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:44753a52$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: How about something snappy like the 'DevCo No-Nonsense Licensing Agreement' I've still got the original "Borland No-Nonsense License Statement" printed on the inside cover of my TP3 manual. I'll be happy to scan it and send it to DevCo :-) Regards Uffe Back to top John Herbster Guest Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi licenses question. "Chris Burrows" wrote Quote: ... a great marketing idea to kickstart the new kid on the block! How about something snappy like the 'DevCo No-Nonsense Licensing Agreement' ;-) Chris, Thanks! 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