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Mike Saunders
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 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:44 pm Post subject: Delphi support in the UK |
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We are a small outfit and often get asked from the client when quoting
for a job "What would we do if for whatever reason there was no one to
support us in the future"
I would like to know how others in our position deal with this. Perhaps
some sort of collaboration with others in a similar position
Thanks
Mike
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Rick Carter
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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"Mike Saunders" <mike (AT) folleytech (DOT) co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | We are a small outfit and often get asked from the client when quoting
for a job "What would we do if for whatever reason there was no one to
support us in the future"
I would like to know how others in our position deal with this. Perhaps
some sort of collaboration with others in a similar position
|
Several members of our local SIG will give a client a list
of a few contacts who could maintain the code in the future
if the programmer should "get hit by the milk truck." I'm
on a few such lists, and it didn't involve the exchange of
any money. At the SIG meetings, we learn some things about
each other's coding skills, and about each other's general
trustworthiness.
Rick Carter
[email]carterrk (AT) despammed (DOT) com[/email]
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group
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Ralf Mimoun
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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Mike Saunders wrote:
| Quote: | We are a small outfit and often get asked from the client when quoting
for a job "What would we do if for whatever reason there was no one to
support us in the future"
I would like to know how others in our position deal with this.
Perhaps some sort of collaboration with others in a similar position
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That's exactly what I do. I am the backup of one of my colleagues, and he is
my backup.
Ralf
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Joanna Carter (TeamB)
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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"Mike Saunders" <mike (AT) folleytech (DOT) co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
42cee5b0$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com...
| Quote: | We are a small outfit and often get asked from the client when quoting
for a job "What would we do if for whatever reason there was no one to
support us in the future"
I would like to know how others in our position deal with this. Perhaps
some sort of collaboration with others in a similar position
|
Haven't you heard of the UK Developers Group ? Formerly known as the UK
Borland User Group (UK-BUG), we have been a group of mainly Delphi
developers who are able to support each other and often provide developers
to work on existing Delphi projects from within our numbers.
www.ukbug.co.uk
Some of our members present themselves as part of the much greater group of
developers that the Developers Group provides.
I very much doubt if the time will come in the foreseeable future when there
is no-one left to take over the support of Delphi programs.
Joanna
--
Joanna Carter (TeamB)
Consultant Software Engineer
TeamBUG support for UK-BUG
TeamMM support for ModelMaker
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Allan G. Knox
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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On 8 Jul 2005 13:44:32 -0700, "Mike Saunders" <mike (AT) folleytech (DOT) co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | We are a small outfit and often get asked from the client when quoting
for a job "What would we do if for whatever reason there was no one to
support us in the future"
I would like to know how others in our position deal with this. Perhaps
some sort of collaboration with others in a similar position
Thanks
Mike
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Mike,
I am in a similar position. My first solution was to recruit the
occasional "intern" = University Student on Job Experience, and expose
them to my flagship system for a few months. I also ensure, on a
rotating basis, that my main clients have full copies of all source
code (held on a trust basis) with the agreement that they will liaise,
in event of disaster, with the other clients to call in one of the
interns (or any other Delphi programmer) to ensure ongoing support.
However, although I have one backup in position, the training overhead
on Delphi and several Third Party products in use tied up too much of
my time. I also had to supply a computer, albeit with only a limited
range of products (where I held duplicate licences). Supplying a
full set of development tools would not be affordable without full
production capability. And, I certainly cannot afford to have more
than one intern supported on that basis. Another problem with the
intern concept was that on graduation the job offers were not with
Delphi and, in fact, he now knows lots about SQL (which is useful) and
Oracle (which knowledge is not useful, for me).
I now feel that having a "symbiotic" arrangement with one or more
other, already experienced, Delphi professionals with their own
development licences, would be more productive overall as the only
real training involved (either way) should be a relatively painless
introduction to the overall system concept and access to the
documentation etc. The main problem here, of course, would be one of
general trust. Exposure to each other's code (and documentation)
should fairly swiftly establish confidence in technical capability.
Oviously, there would be an intense learning curve if ever the
disaster struck, but the introduction should ensure the (eventual)
success in meeting that challenge. For my part, my background (full
details of which would be provably provided) should engender
substantial confidence in my integrity and capabilities.
In theory, at least, my problem here should be short-lived as once
I start serious marketing and expand, I can recruit the necessary
cover. However, the Catch 22 is that I need to persuade the first
batch of new clients to "carry the risk" - or I need to commit to the
training and other costs of permanent staff with the concomitant risk
that they disappear sick or on maternity or paternity leave at a
critical time - before I have the second or third in place. It is not
a happy prospect. While the product was still in mainstream
development, my earlier clients did really need the source code
backup. With stable and proven code, however, the actual risk to new
clients is considerably smaller - possibly marginal. But, they might
not see it that way - because they do not know yet how stable it is.
And, if they are not sure, they will not buy - and if they do not buy,
I cannot justify the extra staff.
The UKBUG option does not work for me as the combination of distance
and immediate financial cost at around 400 miles and £150 p.a. don't
appeal. I am in Argyll - call it Central Belt Scotland, if you wish
and would regard anyone else in mainland Scotland, Northern Ireland,
or Northern England as being "in the zone" distancewise. For those
outside the zone, I think the UKBUG option is probably well worth the
cost if you are based anywhere south of, say, Manchester or are in the
North of England and near a station or airport.
Of course, I would also be happy to consider arrangements with someone
outside that zone, including overseas, if they wished to involve
themselves more fully on a franchise or partnership basis with my
flagship product (GFCARS - Garage and Forecourt, Control Accounting
and Reporting System). However, I am less sure about how I could
reciprocate in that situation.
The system was initially developed from scratch in Delphi 1 and has
been continually enhanced, while always in live use, through all
versions of Delphi, skipping 4, and peripherally only with 6, through
to 7. It would presumably need tweaking to cope with differences for
VAT etc. in different countries, but that would be small potatoes.
Regrettably, it was not designed to cope with anything too exotic in
the way of foreign languages. So, if your needs are outside the scope
of standard ASCII, sorry! Dual currencies would also be a bit of a
challenge, but one that could be met.
It is a *very* large suite of integrated programs, initially
targetted at Forecourt operations with a Convenience Store (with an
intelligent EPOS) and, optionally, Workshop and/or Vehicle Sale and
Hire facilities. It was subsequently extended to cover full
Supermarket operation. Although large, it it consistent and modular,
and an experienced developer, used to BDE*, DBISAM*, SQL*, and DevEx*
products (particularly but not exclusively, the Grid) - and
comfortable at least with picking up on Raize*, ESBPCS*, TMS,
plusMemo, JAM software, WPtools, Help&Manual*, and several other such
fine Third Party products should soon find their way round the code.
At this stage, I am not ready to partner with someone who could not
also provide technical expertise as backup (either from their own
resources or by financing one locally here). So, unless you are ready
to put serious money up front, please don't get too enthusiastic about
a purely marketing opportunity here.
If anyone sees a genuine possibility of mutual benefit and support,
please get in touch - initially here or by email. If email contact is
used I would be happy to pass on details appropriately if I see 2 or
more people who might not have a sufficiently close fit with my
requirements or capabilities, but could possibly benefit each other.
Regards
Allan Knox
NB Third party products marked with an asterisk (*) are in extensive
use throughout the mainstream product. Others are used principally in
non-critical support routines. There are also extensive Turbopower
components which are all, along with the BDE, being gradually replaced
by C/S DBISAM and other products mentioned as time, opportunity and
need for testing in the area for other reasons dictate. Licences
would be needed at least for the * items. In the event of a disaster,
all existing licences (with the exception of TMS which is curiously
limited in that regard) should be transferrable.
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Allan G. Knox
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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| Quote: | We are a small outfit and often get asked from the client when quoting
for a job "What would we do if for whatever reason there was no one to
support us in the future"
I would like to know how others in our position deal with this. Perhaps
some sort of collaboration with others in a similar position
|
Mike,
On a more general level to my earlier response, I have some more
bullet point thoughts on the very important point you have raised.
Happily, I believe it is a problem with a potential wealth of
solutions - but forethought and prior arrangements are essential, as
you so correctly intimate.
Sometimes reciprocity is not going to be enough. Incompatible needs
and capabilities may force a 3-way or multiway arrangement. Life
could swiftly get complicated, and a broken link could bring the whole
chain down. So, I think if paired mutual support is not enough, a
more general solution is called for. A generall solution needs
(amongst other things?) the following to be considered:
a. A rush of capital when the "disaster" strikes. This would
probably be best covered by an appropriate insurance policy, which
could even include an element to compensate clients for resultant
inconvenience.
b. Ongoing funds to cover admin costs, including insurance
premiums. These should be based on a cooperative principal and not be
at a level which attracts outside agencies with dollar signs in their
eyes. If costs were largely equal, they could be met "where they
fall". So, no money need necessarily change hands but "you" might be
meeting the expense of others, while those others met "your" expenses.
Otherwise, premiums could be paid to the "Trusted Body" mentioned
below.
c. Access to general-purpose Delphi coders. These may well be
different people on "standby" at different times. The likes of UKBUG
and other developer associations should be able to help here. We need
access to agencies or bodies who are not totally committed the whole
time, or have frequent stretches where they do fill-in, deferable
work.
d. Access to specialist Delphi analysts/designers/coders. If
the likes of Glenn Crouch, Ray Konopka, Bruno Fierens, Julian Ziersch,
just as a handful of examples of internationally known names who are
still commercially active and proven able to handle even the most
complex of code were to register themselves with an appropriate
Central Point of contact along with their hourly rates, we would know
what sort of insurance cover was required and that the "difficult
bits" the general-purpose coders could not handle (in reasonable time)
would be resolved. Some of the names mentioned and certainly others I
have not mentioned personally because they are part of bigger teams,
could not only provide specialist assistance, but might also be able
to provide lesser mortals from within their ranks or acquaintance for
general purpose coding (at cheaper hourly rates, of course). Borland
themselves might even be able to help. It might even influence others
to start Delphi (or other Borland) shops if they knew "insurance
cover" was underwritten by Borland themselves.
e. Customer Support/Help Desk/Central Point of Contact. This
requirement I see as distinct from the coders etc. as it needs people
who can front end the day-to-day situations like explaining to
customers affected by the "disaster" that all will be well very
shortly and that everything is in hand. They can also cover
assistance like explaining that, "No the program will not work
properly during a power cut etc. But, it should be all right again
when the power comes back." They would need to be available under a
permanent number, unlike the coders. An 0845 number would probably
meet the need here, to cover location switching. This support might
justify limited full-time staffing, if enough people were paying the
subs - with more staff being drafted or called in when the "disaster"
struck (and the insurance money became available). This body would be
the one notified when you were off on holiday or otherwise unavailable
for odd periods - so that your clients could be reassured that you
were "in the Alps" and not "under a bus".
f. A trusted and secure repository for backup copies of source
code, documentation, and stable and compatible executable sets. This
to include known working versions of all licensed Third Party products
- not necessarily in live use, possibly in backup format only, and
therefore not necessarily needing current licences. In some cases
these versions may not be the latest, and the latest may not be
appropriate. Requirements e. and f. may be combined, but this element
needs competent technical availability - probably as a "secondary
commitment" on a day to day basis. Appropriate Fire Safes, secure
broadband access, and some hefty hard drives and other backup devices
would be a minimum. A geographically separate secondary site would
also be needed in case of more routine disasters - if a standard
backup site, initiated separately, was not already known.
g. An agreed "Trusted Body" to whom appropriate Death Certificates
etc. could be forwarded and who could then provide confirmation of
said incapacity to other concerned parties (such as Third Party
Licence authorities) so that licence transfers etc could be effected
without having 50 copies of the certificates. This "Trusted Body"
would also hold the insurance policies. This responsibility might
also be shared with the repository above, but is more likely suited to
the likes of banks or solicitors - whereas the repository of code etc.
would need to be software specialists.
h. Arrangements in place for the swift transfer of all relevant
licences to, or via, the trusted repository in event of disaster
(death or effectively total incapacity). Prior arrangement should
also be made to obtain additional licences as required (under cover of
the insurance payout) - but probably using locally produced copies of
the code already held rather than possibly incompatible latest
versions.
The simplest General Case would be a 2-way arrangement where the other
party would be the "Trusted Body", secure repository, and Central
Point of Contact, all rolled into one, for the other - as well as
initial provider of general-purpose coders. Specialist or temporary
assistance should be covered by the insurance payout.
Any thoughts or comments, Mike or anyone? Please feel free to plug
any gaps in the above thinking, or provide suggestions on appropriate
bodies or agencies to be involved. If any of the well-known names,
whether mentioned implicitly or explicitly, read this, could they
please confirm in principle whether or not they would be prepared to
quote at least an indicative rate in advance, and be ready to assist
if and when the "disaster" strikes.
If any Third Party providers have limitations on licence transfer
could they please so intimate. TMS are the only ones I know at the
moment where one developer cannot pass on the license to another, but
possibly they might want to indicate an exception in the case of death
or total incapacity to a level triggering a substantial insurance
payout. Others may wish to indicate that they also have such a
limitation so that we know up front that arrangements outlined above
would be in jeopardy if they were involved.
Regards
Allan Knox
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Joanna Carter (TeamB)
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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"Allan G. Knox" <AllanGKnox#losethis#@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: [email]k46vc1p5bgjqtiu84p59bhselr5uvhi1lr (AT) 4ax (DOT) com[/email]...
| Quote: | d. Access to specialist Delphi analysts/designers/coders. If
the likes of Glenn Crouch, Ray Konopka, Bruno Fierens, Julian Ziersch,
just as a handful of examples of internationally known names
|
Not forgetting those of us in the UK who have a wealth of experience and
expertise and have been available for consultancy, debugging,
trouble-shooting, etc.
I often go to companies to help out with architecture/design and have ended
up saving those companies thousands of pounds (despite my fees). I am
situated near to Manchester in the middle of the UK and am able to travel
easily to either the Scotland, Ireland Wales or anywhere else in the UK or
even Europe. It akes me just as long to get to Glasgow and Edinburgh as it
would to London.
There is such a large group of Delphi professionals of all levels in the UK,
that finding someone at most levels of expertise should really be no problem
at all, and UK-BUG has an extensive list of such companies and developers.
As to the lack of UK-BUG support in Scotland, Several attempts were made and
a lot of time and energy was expended to try and provide worthwhile meetings
in Scotland, but nobody local seemed interested enough to support the effort
being made by the few that did something.
Joanna
--
Joanna Carter (TeamB)
Consultant Software Engineer
TeamBUG support for UK-BUG
TeamMM support for ModelMaker
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Dominic Willems
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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Ingvar Nilsen wrote:
You never heard of the newly discovered British continent then? :)
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Ingvar Nilsen
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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Joanna Carter (TeamB) wrote:
| Quote: | I am situated near to Manchester in the middle of the UK and
am able to travel easily to either the Scotland, Ireland Wales or
anywhere else in the UK or even Europe.
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Even Europe! <g>
--
Ingvar Nilsen
http://www.ingvarius.com
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Joanna Carter (TeamB)
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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"Dominic Willems" <domus.software (AT) removethispandora (DOT) be> a écrit dans le
message de news: 42cfcca4$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com...
| Quote: | Ingvar Nilsen wrote:
Even Europe!
You never heard of the newly discovered British continent then? 
|
Thanks to a multitude of airlines flying from Manchester (45 miles) and
Liverpool (35 miles), travelling to most places in Europe is sometimes
faster than driving to some places in the UK.
Vive l'Europe :-)
Joanna
--
Joanna Carter (TeamB)
Consultant Software Engineer
TeamBUG support for UK-BUG
TeamMM support for ModelMaker
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Ingvar Nilsen
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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Joanna Carter (TeamB) wrote:
| Quote: | Thanks to a multitude of airlines flying from Manchester (45 miles)
and Liverpool (35 miles), travelling to most places in Europe is
sometimes faster than driving to some places in the UK.
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From here where I live, I use zero time to go to Europe, wonder what
"Manchester" you live in where you need to travel to achieve the same :)
--
Ingvar Nilsen
http://www.ingvarius.com
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Dominic Willems
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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Joanna Carter (TeamB) wrote:
| Quote: | travelling to most places in Europe is
sometimes faster than driving to some places in the UK.
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I know this will come as a huge shock, but I'm afraid you're smack bang
in the middle of Europe. :)
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Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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At 00:16:07, 10.07.2005, Dominic Willems wrote:
| Quote: | Joanna Carter (TeamB) wrote:
travelling to most places in Europe is
sometimes faster than driving to some places in the UK.
I know this will come as a huge shock, but I'm afraid you're smack bang
in the middle of Europe.
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<vbg> Indeed.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de
"Not only is there no God, but try finding a plumber on Sunday."
- Woody Allen (1935-)
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Mike Orriss [RemObjects S
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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Dominic Willems wrote:
| Quote: | I know this will come as a huge shock, but I'm afraid you're smack
bang in the middle of Europe.
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Middle?
There is this great body of water separating us physically from most of
Europe.
--
Mike Orriss
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Ingvar Nilsen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Delphi support in the UK |
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Mike Orriss [RemObjects Software] wrote:
| Quote: | Dominic Willems wrote:
I know this will come as a huge shock, but I'm afraid you're smack
bang in the middle of Europe. :)
Middle?
There is this great body of water separating us physically from most
of Europe.
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So isn't this water also part of Europe?
The funny thing is that this misconception is widespread here too, "I'm
going down to Europe this weekend" some may say.
What is needed is a common expression for the centre of Europe. Myself I
always say "the continent", "down on the continent"
And especially because we are not a EU member and at the same time
definitely are a part of Europe, I tend to arrest such statements, like
the original one of Joanna.
--
Ingvar Nilsen
http://www.ingvarius.com
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