BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Delphi vs BCB ? Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Sasan Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:01 am    Post subject: Delphi vs BCB ? Hello, I hear that Delphi exe file are faster BCB, becuse VCL write in Pascal language , is this true ? regards, m.t Back to top Andrue Cope [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? Sasan wrote: Quote: Hello, I hear that Delphi exe file are faster BCB, becuse VCL write in Pascal language , is this true ? Highly unlikely. Although it's true that the VCL is written in Pascal (Borland's Delphi dialect of it) it compiles to 80x86 machine code just as C++ code does. Delphi as a language is not particularly innefficient so the resulting DLLs/LIBs that we link to probably execute at the same speed as if they'd been written in C++. Some C++ code had to be written to provide an interface between us and the VCL but this is minimal code (mostly just wrappers) and unlikely to impact on performance. If there are any performance issues associated with the VCL they are almost certainly dwarfed into insignificance by the message handling aspect of the Windows GUI. No-one expects lightening fast instantaneous response from a GUI so a few extra function calls or poorly implemented functions are unlikely to have any effect on the user experience. The only real downside to the use of Delphi for the VCL is that a few C++ design paradigms aren't directly available to us and we are tied into Borland's products. In practice I don't imagine that C++ developers are continuously being stymied by not being able to employ multiple inheritance and std::auto_ptr lets us put components on the stack for most practical purposes. Actually multiple inheritence may be available in the next version since I think I heard that the Delphi language now supports it. Being tied into Borland products can at times seem like a real problem. The sad neglect of BCB until recently is perhaps the worst example of the consequences of this. Thankfully Borland are now working to correct that issue and based on past experience the result should be just about enough to get most of us back on their side. -- Andrue Cope [TeamB] [Bicester, Uk] http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html Back to top Alisdair Meredith [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? Andrue Cope [TeamB] wrote: Quote: Actually multiple inheritence may be available in the next version since I think I heard that the Delphi language now supports it. Delphi supports implementing multiple interfaces, much like Java. BCB gained the ability to support multiple base classes for VCL in BCB6 so long as: i/ only one base class is derived from TObject. (and I think it must be first/leftmost class) ii/ all other classes are 'interface' classes. The definition of interface in this case is all members are pure virtual functions, without an implementation. Given TObject destructor uses __fastcall convention, it is recommended to defined your interface class destructors as virtual __fastcall as well. [I think you are allowed to implement this destructor inline] Note there are still problems with dynamics casts on the interfaces, but it will serve for most purposes where an interface class is desirable. As far as I am aware, there are still no plans for 'mixin' class support for VCL multiple inheritence. And of course, these restrictions are purely on classes with VCL base classes - straight C++ has no such restriction. AlisdairM(TeamB) Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? At 11:32:09, 06.09.2005, Andrue Cope [TeamB] wrote: Quote: Actually multiple inheritence may be available in the next version since I think I heard that the Delphi language now supports it. Not at all. I think Alisdair explained it very well for the C++ side of TObject-derived classes. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "A scholar who cherishes the love of comfort is not fit to be deemed a scholar." -- Lao-Tzu (570?-490? BC) Back to top Robby Tanner Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? I believe Delphi apps will compile in single pass, so I imagine they build faster. Not so sure about execution profiles though. Rob "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Hello, I hear that Delphi exe file are faster BCB, becuse VCL write in Pascal language , is this true ? regards, m.t Back to top Helmut Giese Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:31:27 +0430, "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Hello, I hear that Delphi exe file are faster BCB, becuse VCL write in Pascal language , is this true ? For the VCL doing lots of GUI stuff this will probably not matter, but by (language) design Pascal problems will run a trifle faster than their C equivalent, because in Pascal the caller is responsible for clearing the stack. In C any function just ends with return and the the caller adjusts the stack by doing add sp,xxx to remove the parameters it pushed before calling the function. In Pascal a function having parameters ends with return xxx which returns to the caller and at the same time removes those xxx bytes from the stack, and this gains a tiny little bit of time at each function call. A consequence of this is btw that in Pascal you cannot have (user defined) functions with a variable number of arguments (think printf in C). Yes, you have WriteLine but the compiler /knows/ that it is special - /you/ cannot define a similar function. But I wouldn't take this as a criterion when choosing a language. Best regards Helmut Giese Back to top Helmut Giese Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? An afterthought: Of course Delphi /compiles/ blazingly fast. The reason for this is that Delphi is totally proprietary, no standard in sight to conform to. A C compiler has to #include, say windows.h (ever looked at its size?), and interprete and remember any definition it contains - whether it will actually be used by your program or not. In Delphi the equivalent is 'using MyUnit'. Now, MyUnit only contains information about the things it /actually/ 'exports' - and this in a proprietary way which is probably optimized for speed. So the Delphi compiler looks at MyUnit, collects the couple of functions etc. it exports and is done with the whole compilation, while the C compiler is still grinding through the header files. HTH Helmut Giese Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I hear that Delphi exe file are faster BCB, becuse VCL write in Pascal language , is this true ? It is not the coding language persay that determines the runtime speed. Both languages compile to 8x86 assembly instructions, so the speed of runtime executation of various commands is similar. BCB apps, however, tend to be a little slower than Delphi apps because C++ apps have more runtime overhead then Delphi apps. Not only do C++ VCL apps have the VCL library to deal with, but they also have the C/C++ runtime library to deal with as well. Gambit Back to top Robby Tanner Guest Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? "Helmut Giese" <hgiese (AT) ratiosoft (DOT) com> wrote Quote: On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:31:27 +0430, "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: A consequence of this is btw that in Pascal you cannot have (user defined) functions with a variable number of arguments (think printf in C). Yes, you have WriteLine but the compiler /knows/ that it is special - /you/ cannot define a similar function. Really? Hm. I thought you could. Back to top Lee Grissom Guest Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? "Robby Tanner" wrote Quote: I believe Delphi apps will compile in single pass, so I imagine they build faster. No need to imagine. Delphi compiles *a lot* faster. -- Lee Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote: Quote: "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message news:431d5ab4 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... I hear that Delphi exe file are faster BCB, becuse VCL write in Pascal language , is this true ? It is not the coding language persay that determines the runtime speed. Both languages compile to 8x86 assembly instructions, so the speed of runtime executation of various commands is similar. BCB apps, however, tend to be a little slower than Delphi apps because C++ apps have more runtime overhead then Delphi apps. Not only do C++ VCL apps have the VCL library to deal with, but they also have the C/C++ runtime library to deal with as well. I agree that the C++ runtime library needs additional memory and perhaps some additional time on startup / initialization. The additional code (size) may have an impact on the speed. But i cannot imagine why the C++ runtime would have another impact on the speed of the application ? If I don't use the C++ runtime and only VCL code I don't see any reason why Delphi should generate (significant) faster code. - calling convention is the same - code (VCL) is the same Quote: Gambit Delphi surely generates the code faster ;-) In both languages you can write bad code and e.g. code that uses standard C++ iostreams for file io tends to be rather slow. Andre Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:35 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? "Andre Kaufmann" <andre.kaufmann.bei (AT) t-online (DOT) de> wrote Quote: If I don't use the C++ runtime and only VCL code I don't see any reason why Delphi should generate (significant) faster code. Even if you don't use the C++ runtime in your own code, it is still being used nontheless. The C++ portions of the VCL use it, and maybe also the startup code. Also, things like ATL also use the runtime internally in places. Gambit Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? Helmut Giese wrote: Quote: On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:31:27 +0430, "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: Hello, I hear that Delphi exe file are faster BCB, becuse VCL write in Pascal language , is this true ? For the VCL doing lots of GUI stuff this will probably not matter, but by (language) design Pascal problems will run a trifle faster than their C equivalent, because in Pascal the caller is responsible for clearing the stack. Are you sure that the calling convention has that significant impact on the execution speed of the compiled code ? I doesn't matter if the called function or the caller saves/removes it's arguments to/from the stack. What matters is the code size generated, which is larger if the __cdecl calling convention is used and a function is called multiple times, so far you are right that the C++ code may run not that fast than the one compiled with Delphi. But you are free the choose any calling convention you like in your own code and regarding 64 Bit compilers you won't have to care about calling convention anymore . Quote: [...] But I wouldn't take this as a criterion when choosing a language. The compiler which has an overview of all the code compiled can choose the calling convention by itself and can pass most of the parameters in registers. Quote: Best regards Helmut Giese Andre Back to top Robby Tanner Guest Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? "Andre Kaufmann" <andre.kaufmann.bei (AT) t-online (DOT) de> wrote Quote: Helmut Giese wrote: On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:31:27 +0430, "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: But you are free the choose any calling convention you like in your own code and regarding 64 Bit compilers you won't have to care about calling convention anymore . Why not? Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi vs BCB ? Robby Tanner wrote: Quote: "Andre Kaufmann" <andre.kaufmann.bei (AT) t-online (DOT) de> wrote in message news:431e7db4 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Helmut Giese wrote: On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:31:27 +0430, "Sasan" <sasan_vm (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: But you are free the choose any calling convention you like in your own code and regarding 64 Bit compilers you won't have to care about calling convention anymore . Why not? There's only one calling convention in 64 bit Windows - __fastcall Andre Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum C++ Builder Newsgroups----------------C++ BuilderC++ Builder (ActiveX)C++ Builder (Announcements)C++ Builder (Command Line Tools)C++ Builder DatabasesC++ Builder Databases (ADO)C++ Builder Databases (Desktop)C++ Builder Databases (InterBase Express)C++ Builder Databases (Multi-Tier)C++ Builder Databases (SQL Servers)C++ Builder (Graphics)C++ Builder (IDE)C++ Builder (Internet)C++ Builder (Internet Socket)C++ Builder (Internet Web)C++ Builder (Jobs)C++ Builder (Language)C++ Builder (Language C++)C++ Builder (Compatibility with MFC)C++ Builder (Native API)C++ Builder (Non-Technical)C++ Builder (Students)C++ Builder (Third Party Tools)C++ Builder (Upgrade)C++ Builder (VCL)C++ Builder (VCL Components Usage)C++ Builder (VCL Components Development)C++ Builder (VCL Usage)C++ Builder (WinAPI)C++ Builder Installation Delphi Newsgroups----------------Delphi (General)Delphi ActiveX Controls UsageDelphi ActiveX Controls DevelopmentDelphi As400Delphi DatabasesDelphi Databases (ADO)Delphi Databases (dbExpress)Delphi Databases (Desktop)Delphi Databases (InterBase Express)Delphi Databases (Multi-Tier)Delphi Databases (SQL Servers)Delphi DeploymentDelphi GraphicsDelphi IDEDelphi InternationalizationDelphi InternetDelphi Internet Isapi-WebBrokerDelphi Internet WebSnapDelphi Internet WinsockDelphi JobsDelphi Language BASMDelphi Language ObjectPascalDelphi Model Driven Architecture (General)Delphi Model Driven Architecture (Third Party)Delphi MultimediaDelphi Native APIDelphi Non-TechnicalDelphi ObjectPascalDelphi OLE AutomationDelphi OO designDelphi OpenToolsAPIDelphi Reporting-ChartingDelphi RTLDelphi StudentsDelphi TeamSourceDelphi Thirdparty ToolsDelphi Thirdparty Tools (General)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (IntraWeb)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (RaveReports)Delphi UpgradeDelphi VCLDelphi VCL ComponentsDelphi VCL Components UsingDelphi VCL Components WritingDelphi WebServices SOAPDelphi WinAPIDelphi XMLDelphi Installationcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misccomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usagecomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writingcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.databasescomp.lang.pascal.delphi.misccomp.sources.delphi JBuilder Newsgroups----------------JBuilderJBuilder AnnouncementsJBuilder Applet IssuesJBuilder As400JBuilder CompilerJBuilder CORBA/RMIJBuilder DatabasesJBuilder DB SwingJBuilder DebuggerJBuilder DeploymentJBuilder DocumentationJBuilder EnterpriseJBuilder HandheldJBuilder IDEJBuilder JavaJBuilder JavaAPIJBuilder Java LanguageJBuilder Java SwingJBuilder Java BeansJBuilder Java Beans UsageJBuilder Java Beans DevelopmentJBuilder JBCLJBuilder JDataStoreJBuilder JobsJBuilder LinuxJBuilder MacintoshJBuilder & MobileSetJBuilder MultiLingual AppsJBuilder Non-TechnicalJBuilder OpenToolsJBuilder Servlets (JSP)JBuilder StudentsJBuilder Team DevelopmentJBuilder Thirdparty ToolsJBuilder UpgradeJBuilder Installation InterBase Newsgroups----------------InterBaseInterBase Bug DiscussionInterBase GeneralInterBase IBConsoleInterBase OpenSourceInterBase ReplicationInterBase SQLInterBase ThirdpartyInterBase Installation Miscellaneous Borland Newsgroups----------------AppCenterAppServerEnteraVisiBroker  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.