BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Delphi9 and BCB Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message fwang11 Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:39 am    Post subject: Delphi9 and BCB Delphi 9 has VCL.Win32, VCL.NET, C#, then why not include BCB in Delphi 9 with VCL.Win32 Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB fwang11 wrote: Quote: Delphi 9 has VCL.Win32, VCL.NET, C#, then why not include BCB in Delphi 9 with VCL.Win32 More than likely - time and resources. Quote: -- Jeff Overcash (TeamB) (Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. (RAH) Back to top fwang11 Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:41 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: fwang11 wrote: Delphi 9 has VCL.Win32, VCL.NET, C#, then why not include BCB in Delphi 9 with VCL.Win32 More than likely - time and resources. At that time, MS.NET and VC# may already become mainstream and no need for BCB VCL anymore. Back to top Boian Mitov Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:56 am    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB It seems that Microsoft is pushing for VC++ as a mainstream now. It appears that they are mowing toward replacing the VB with C# and have the C++ as a primary tool. At least this is the current song. We will see tomorrow ;-) fwang11 wrote: Quote: At that time, MS.NET and VC# may already become mainstream and no need for BCB VCL anymore. Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB fwang11 wrote: Quote: "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote: fwang11 wrote: Delphi 9 has VCL.Win32, VCL.NET, C#, then why not include BCB in Delphi 9 with VCL.Win32 More than likely - time and resources. At that time, MS.NET and VC# may already become mainstream and no need for BCB VCL anymore. I thought you were interested in C++, not a .NET language? If you want a managed C++ (like the two examples you gave) then I would definitely put that in the time and resources category. -- Jeff Overcash (TeamB) (Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. (RAH) Back to top mr_organic Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote in news:416BDC6C.76367578 (AT) mindspring (DOT) com: Quote: fwang11 wrote: "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote: I thought you were interested in C++, not a .NET language? If you want a managed C++ (like the two examples you gave) then I would definitely put that in the time and resources category. That's a false dichotomy. C++ *is* a .NET language. The "managed C++" of VS2003 is giving way to C++/CLI, which is *much* cleaner and easier to work with (and more conformant to standard C++). The C++/CLI is going to be a major player in Windows-based C++ development, I can guarantee you. Herb Sutter has done yeoman work to make .NET "play nice" with C++, and the STL.NET extensions are *extremely* cool. mr_organic Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "mr_organic" <mr_organic (AT) yourmamashouse (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote in news:416BDC6C.76367578 (AT) mindspring (DOT) com: fwang11 wrote: "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote: I thought you were interested in C++, not a .NET language? If you want a managed C++ (like the two examples you gave) then I would definitely put that in the time and resources category. That's a false dichotomy. C++ *is* a .NET language. The "managed C++" of VS2003 is giving way to C++/CLI, which is *much* cleaner and easier to work with (and more conformant to standard C++). C++ is not a .NET langauge as it does not produce CLI and does not conform to managed code. MS is adding managed extentions to C++, but the BCB C++ compiler, gnu C++ etc are not .NET lanaguages. Any ANSI standard compiler without the new MS extensions to the language are not a .NET lanaguage. Quote: The C++/CLI is going to be a major player in Windows-based C++ development, I can guarantee you. Herb Sutter has done yeoman work to make .NET "play nice" with C++, and the STL.NET extensions are *extremely* cool. Once again, these are extensions to the ANSI C++ standard. ANSI C++ is not a .NET language. It is possible the standards committy will adopt some of these extensions in the future, but today they are not part of the standard. Quote: mr_organic Back to top mr_organic Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote in news:416c0fb0$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: Quote: C++ is not a .NET langauge as it does not produce CLI and does not conform to managed code. Huh?!? C++ can produce any machine-code you want it to (including java byte code, if you write a compiler to spit it out...) C++ is a *language*, not a *platform*. C++ requires some additional structures to take advantage of the .NET environment, but it's a fully first-class citizen in the .NET world, and C++ assemblies play nicely in the .NET universe. Quote: MS is adding managed extentions to C++, but the BCB C++ compiler, gnu C++ etc are not .NET lanaguages. Any ANSI standard compiler without the new MS extensions to the language are not a .NET lanaguage. Both GNU and Borland's compilers deviate from the standard too (the VCL compiler extensions in BCC32, and GNUisms in GCC). So by your logic, they're not ANSI standard compilers either. I guess I just don't understand what you're driving at. You can write perfectly vanilla C++ in Visual Studio 2003 (that doesn't take advantage of .NET), or use C++/CLI to target .NET-specific stuff. How that's so different from using a platform-specific toolkit or library is kind of beyond me. mr_organic Back to top Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "mr_organic" <mr_organic (AT) yourmamashouse (DOT) com> writes: Quote: "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote in news:416c0fb0$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: C++ is not a .NET langauge as it does not produce CLI and does not conform to managed code. Huh?!? C++ can produce any machine-code you want it to (including java byte code, if you write a compiler to spit it out...) It's not a big deal. His point is that C++ requires languages extensions before it can work in a .NET environment. Quote: C++ is a *language*, not a *platform*. C++ requires some additional structures to take advantage of the .NET environment, but it's a fully first-class citizen in the .NET world, and C++ assemblies play nicely in the .NET universe. C++ is not interoperable with .NET at all until you add extensions to the langauge and make use of them in your code. If extensions are used, the assemblies can be generated and will play nicely with the ..NET universe, but getting them created requires a compiler that goes beyond the features mandated by the C++ standard. -- Chris (TeamB); Back to top mr_organic Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) <chris (AT) uzdavinis (DOT) com> wrote in news:j5hdozrg4x.fsf (AT) explicit (DOT) atdesk.com: Quote: C++ is not interoperable with .NET at all until you add extensions to the langauge and make use of them in your code. Well, the same thing is true of bcc32 and the VCL. I can't compile VCL code with any other compiler; therefore, bcc32 is no more a "real" C++ compiler than C++/CLI. Quote: If extensions are used, the assemblies can be generated and will play nicely with the .NET universe, but getting them created requires a compiler that goes beyond the features mandated by the C++ standard. Every single real-world compiler I'm aware of deviates from the "standard", because the C++ standard exists in a rarefied world where there are no threads, no dynamic libraries, no GUIs, and no networks. I'm still not sure exactly what you're driving at. C++/CLI requires some syntax modifications and some compiler changes, but big deal -- so does almost every other real-world compiler. The world is a messy place. mr_organic Back to top Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "mr_organic" <mr_organic (AT) yourmamashouse (DOT) com> writes: Quote: Every single real-world compiler I'm aware of deviates from the "standard", because the C++ standard exists in a rarefied world where there are no threads, no dynamic libraries, no GUIs, and no networks. Threads, dynamic libraries, guis, and networking... all of that is done through libraries, not through language changes. Quote: I'm still not sure exactly what you're driving at. I'm not "driving at" anything. You asked a question (about what Jeff was getting at) and I tried to answer it. Quote: C++/CLI requires some syntax modifications and some compiler changes, That's the entirety of what Jeff was saying, I think. It's not pure C++. Quote: but big deal -- so does almost every other real-world compiler. The world is a messy place. Agreed. But that's still beside the point. I like the .NET extensions, BTW. -- Chris (TeamB); Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote Quote: C++ is not a .NET langauge as it does not produce CLI and does not conform to managed code. MS is adding managed extentions to C++, but the BCB C++ compiler, gnu C++ etc are not .NET lanaguages. Any ANSI standard compiler without the new MS extensions to the language are not a .NET lanaguage. But the C++ standard doesn´t define which code the compiler emits. Every C++ compiler could also emit IL code instead of X86 or any other machine code. But this code would either be not CLI conformant or not identical with the original code (layout). Or another example: Delphi does make it quite nicely: A simple switch and the compiler emits .NET IL code instead of X86 code ! Still it´s the same language. Quote: The C++/CLI is going to be a major player in Windows-based C++ development, I can guarantee you. Herb Sutter has done yeoman work to make .NET "play nice" with C++, and the STL.NET extensions are *extremely* cool. Once again, these are extensions to the ANSI C++ standard. ANSI C++ is not a .NET language. It is possible the standards committy will adopt some of these extensions in the future, but today they are not part of the standard. But the VCL extensions aren´t ANSI C++ standard too. Since C++/CLI will be another ISO standard every compiler vendor is free to implement this standard. Andre Back to top Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB "Andre Kaufmann" <##andre_no_spam_.kaufmann_ (AT) _x_t-online (DOT) de##> writes: Quote: "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> wrote C++ is not a .NET langauge as it does not produce CLI and does not conform to managed code. MS is adding managed extentions to C++, but the BCB C++ compiler, gnu C++ etc are not .NET lanaguages. Any ANSI standard compiler without the new MS extensions to the language are not a .NET lanaguage. But the C++ standard doesn´t define which code the compiler emits. True. Quote: Every C++ compiler could also emit IL code instead of X86 or any other machine code. Perhaps, but this is purely academic. Quote: But this code would either be not CLI conformant or not identical with the original code (layout). In terms of .NET, it's impossible for C++ to work without extensions. Adding a flag or otherwise won't solve the problem. For example, garbage collection needs a means of recognizing what are pointers. In C++, you can store pointers in integers, or even break them up into small parts to be reassembled later. The garbage collector cannot detect that these are pointers, and might cleanup objects that still exist. Perhaps this is a contrived example, but Herb Sutter gave a nice example where it is perfectly valid and completely legitimate and useful. It's possible to write a doubly-linked list that uses an XOR operation to hold the address of both the previous and next nodes. That way your nodes only have one pointer instead of two. The way it works is you remember where you came from, XOR the prev's address into the current node's pointer, and get the next node. XOR the next node into the current node's pointer and get the previous. This is a nice optimization when space is at a premium, is perfectly valid C++, and simply cannot work with garbage collectors. (Unless the GC has an API enabling your program to register/unregister objects with it.) In any case, this is just one example where a C++ application cannot be converted into .NET without language-level changes. -- Chris (TeamB); Back to top Tamas Demjen Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) wrote: Quote: In any case, this is just one example where a C++ application cannot be converted into .NET without language-level changes. Another example would be the ref class / value class problem. The compiler must emit completely differen code for those cases, and in standard C++ there is no way to make a difference between the two without the extensions. The language does not allow us to express our intention towards the CLI subsystem. Unlike the x86 and other physical platforms, the .NET framework can not be targetted without some pretty significant extensions to the C++ standard. Tom Back to top Mike Swaim Guest Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Delphi9 and BCB Boian Mitov wrote: Quote: It seems that Microsoft is pushing for VC++ as a mainstream now. It appears that they are mowing toward replacing the VB with C# and have the C++ as a primary tool. At least this is the current song. We will see tomorrow MS is not a monolithic entity. The VC++ team's pushing their superior code generation and new C++ extensions in VS 2005. At the last MS dog and pony show I was at however, C++ wasn't mentioned at all. It was all C#, VB.net and Yukon. -- Mike Swaim [email]swaim (AT) hal-pc (DOT) org[/email] at home | Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W & D MD Anderson Dept. of Biostatistics & Applied Mathematics [email]mpswaim (AT) mdanderson (DOT) org[/email] or [email]mswaim (AT) odin (DOT) mdacc.tmc.edu[/email] at work ICBM: 29.763N 95.363W|Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for MD Anderson. 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