BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Günther Schoch Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Hi coming back from a major meeting with the our main customer (swiss army) I would like to summarize the situation on a "strategic IT level" point of view: a) Gartner Group is the main resource for "strategic decisions" b) JAVA and #C are acceptable languages (plattforms) c) Delphi dropped out because the future is not clear (even there are existing investments >50 Mio$ on Delphi products) Do not start to argue technical. This is pure (not stupid) high management level decision. It's never a mistake to take Microsoft/ORACLE/Sun but Borland is now at the "very risky" and DevCo at the "very high risk" level. Now: What is the answer of DevCo - Why is the unique sales point of DevCo? - why are the DevCo products still and improved available in 10 years? - why is Delphi in the "DevCo-Edition" better than JAVA/#C? Not all managers are stupid. They just think in other perspectives. Their big risks are not "less nice development platforms" but suppliers not having to money to invest into the future of a product. For sure "DevCo/Borland IDE" has never a larger number of customers as in the last 2-3 years. What is now the plan to stop this exodus? Or real simple: If DevCo cannot convince these kind of customers than were is the future of DevCo. Sorry for this open words. I do have the impression that all developers feel very positive about DevCo (as I do) but things have now to move fast. DevCo has to come back into the level of "acceptable products for a longterm IT strategie"! Any Gartner-Group reviews ready? regards Günther Back to top Atmapuri Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Hi! Quote: a) Gartner Group is the main resource for "strategic decisions" b) JAVA and #C are acceptable languages (plattforms) c) Delphi dropped out because the future is not clear (even there are existing investments >50 Mio$ on Delphi products) Microsoft/ORACLE/Sun but Borland is now at the "very risky" and DevCo at the "very high risk" level. I am afraid there is nothing much anybody can do except try to complete the transition as soon as possible. Once the buyer and conditions for DevCo are known, Gartner can adjust... But to change horsers because of 6 months of insecurity. That would be silly. Regards! Atmapuri Back to top Günther Schoch Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Quote: But to change horsers because of 6 months of insecurity. That would be silly. For the managers it's at least 4 years of insecurity (remember the COREL/Inprise stories). Since Delphi 7 Borland shifted into the ALM story not supporting Delphi (D8 was the lowest point). Since that time they completely lost their leadership in the IDE/compiler sector. I am convinced that DevCo has to move now to be an attractive target for a deal. regards Günther Back to top Atmapuri Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Hi! Quote: For the managers it's at least 4 years of insecurity (remember the COREL/Inprise stories). Since Delphi 7 Borland shifted into the ALM story not supporting Delphi (D8 was the lowest point). Since that time they completely lost their leadership in the IDE/compiler sector. I am convinced that DevCo has to move now to be an attractive target for a deal. Yes. Thats what they are doing. As for the managers: Imagine you are walking on a thin rope, blades on both sides. And after some time you cant handle it anymore because its too stressfull. Not because you are exhausted. So you rather throw yourself on the knives and take the pain, rather than endure further insecurity. Delphi is the rope, blades are C# and Java. Regards! Atmapuri Back to top Günther Schoch Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Quote: Delphi is the rope, blades are C# and Java. yes for the technical point of view. But I have to jobs in my own company (size = 12 developers): a) marketing b) technical Technically: Since 1995 we use Delphi for 95% of our work and since D2006 start to get again a very good feeling for the quality and the motivation of "DevCo"! Marketing: To propagate Delphi for new projects is today playing "mission impossible"! To get the same project with C# or JAVA is a lot easier. This has to be changed and the key element are "Gartner Group reviews" for our customers. regards Günther Back to top Blackbird Crow Raven Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! "David Smith" <nowhere (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4469ec88$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Gartner reports are just opinions of one company and they are often wrong. You could try to argue that, if somebody claims that the future is all Java/NET according to G. Wasn't that a Robin Williams movie--"The World According to Gartner"? Back to top Günther Schoch Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Hi David Quote: What did Gartner say about Delphi in the late 90's? I bet they didn't recommend Delphi even then, but as we all know, it was absolutely the best developer environment for Win32. Gartner reports are just opinions of one company and they are often wrong. You could try to argue that, if somebody claims that the future is all Java/NET according to G. as you have an opinion. But such companies have more persons that believe to their message. Just go http://www.gartner.com/ and search for keywords like "JAVA", "#C", "Delphi". It's what IT-Manager will do and they buy this reports. But very easy: As Delphi is the best product in your (and my) opinion than it should be possible to force such "independent reviewers" to write positive about the product. This is exactly the job of the marketing department to involve such "decision makers" into their story. Just for a summary: - until 2002 Delphi was fully accepted by IT-Managers - today Delphi is not accepted by IT-Managers (considered as risk) this is a challenge! regards Günther Back to top David Smith Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Günther Schoch kirjoitti: Quote: a) Gartner Group is the main resource for "strategic decisions" What did Gartner say about Delphi in the late 90's? I bet they didn't recommend Delphi even then, but as we all know, it was absolutely the best developer environment for Win32. Gartner reports are just opinions of one company and they are often wrong. You could try to argue that, if somebody claims that the future is all Java/NET according to G. David S. Back to top Günther Schoch Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Quote: There's not much DevCo can do. Trend has been to move away from vendor lock in and proprietary systems. Java and C# have distinct advantages there, with support by the entire industry, and Borland's Delphi debacle has proved the risks with small proprietary tool vendors. interesting feedback for this newsgroup <g>. I this case DevCo will not survive in your opinion the next 3 years? regards Günther Back to top Günther Schoch Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Mi mramirez Quote: - why are the DevCo products still and improved available in 10 >years? Mention which year Borland started, which year Delphi/Borland Pascal started to sell, and the number of versions (10) years. this was actually the killer now with DevCo. For an IT manager the "Borland 20 years" is now reset to 0 for DevCo. We both know that's not true but as well not fully wrong. Quote: - why is Delphi in the "DevCo-Edition" better than JAVA/#C? +The language is, .... yes ... you are right with your arguments but most is "very technical". But I could tell pages of "positive points" but nobody does listen to this message because the Managers "do not trust the future" Quote: +Tell them how finantial institutions such as banks prefer Delphi over other tools, (ask Borland for customer's names). Nomore true for switzerland (and we do have some "small banks") Quote: The "stup*" word can make you banned from the forum... sorry about that. I thought that "Not stup*" would be acceptable Quote: Some of us understand your situation... I hoped! Things have to change by now. regards Günther Back to top somebody Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! "Günther Schoch" <nospam@gs-soft.com> wrote Quote: Do not start to argue technical. This is pure (not stupid) high management level decision. It's never a mistake to take Microsoft/ORACLE/Sun but Borland is now at the "very risky" and DevCo at the "very high risk" level. There's not much DevCo can do. Trend has been to move away from vendor lock in and proprietary systems. Java and C# have distinct advantages there, with support by the entire industry, and Borland's Delphi debacle has proved the risks with small proprietary tool vendors. Back to top mramirez Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Hi. Quote: - Why is the unique sales point of DevCo? Ask Borland Investors department, I don't remember the name, but I remember seen one somewhere n Borland Network... Quote: - why are the DevCo products still and improved available in 10 >years? Mention which year Borland started, which year Delphi/Borland Pascal started to sell, and the number of versions (10) years. Quote: - why is Delphi in the "DevCo-Edition" better than JAVA/#C? +The language is, (learning curve) both easy to learn (used to teach programming) and the same time powerful to be use to develop professional applications client-server apps (finantial ones). +You don't have to worry if a variable is written in uppercase, or lowercase... +Mention how much times M$ (visual basic, C#) has changed its database conectivity products (ADO, RDO, DBGo), leaving its customers in the "blank"... +Mention that Sun didn't want to add to Java some features requested by developers such as enumerations, until C# appear, and Delphi have it for a long time... +You can add how Delphi/Borland/DevCo people have been involved in Java and C# design. (Sun ask Borland about Java "delegates" and "events") (Remember the guy who went from Borland to M$ to develop C# ?) +Tell them how finantial institutions such as banks prefer Delphi over other tools, (ask Borland for customer's names). +The enviroment provides tools and features available for years, and that Java and C# start to duplicate... +If you go for Win32, programs are faster in native support. +If you go for .Net: -The language is not tied to a "virtual machine" and support it at the same time... -The language provides instruccions not available in other languages. Quote: Not all managers are stupid. They just think in other >perspectives. They have other things to solve such as budgets. I have deal with "dumb" managers, before. But, I have also have to deal with "dumb" programmers who think THAT ALL MANAGERS ARE "dumb", and doesn't know how to relate with other coworkers, managers, and, of course, CUSTOMERS... The "stup*" word can make you banned from the forum... It's good to be in others people's feet... Quote: not having to money to invest into the future of a product. That's changing with "DevCo". Quote: Sorry for this open words. I do have the impression that all >developers Some of us understand your situation... Quote: a longterm IT strategie"! Any Gartner-Group reviews ready? What about searching for "Gartner-Group" wrong reviews... Good Luck. mramirez at star dash dev dot com Back to top Fritz Huber Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Quote: There's not much DevCo can do. Trend has been to move away from vendor lock in and proprietary systems. Java and C# have distinct advantages there, with support by the entire industry, and Borland's Delphi debacle has proved the risks with small proprietary tool vendors. interesting feedback for this newsgroup <g>. I this case DevCo will not survive in your opinion the next 3 years? They could provide a great crossplatform IDE for Freepascal and help improving Freepascal even further. Managers wouldn't have to worry about vendor lockin, and programmers would have a great IDE to develop with. They would have to rethink their pricing, as I think it shouldn't be more than what Jetbrains is asking for its Java tools.... I think something like this would make more sense than competing with Microsofts free .NET tools. What I don't know is if the FPC license would allow a scenario like this. Back to top Felipe Monteiro de Carval Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Fritz Huber wrote: Quote: What I don't know is if the FPC license would allow a scenario like this. Yes it does. Free Pascal (and also Lazarus), can be utilized to write proprietary commercial software. Felipe Back to top Felipe Monteiro de Carval Guest Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: DevCo Marketing needs to move fast! Günther Schoch wrote: Quote: c) Delphi dropped out because the future is not clear (even there are existing investments >50 Mio$ on Delphi products) If they have a lot of money invested on Delphi and think it's future is unknown it would probably nice to make them consider Lazarus. It can recompile Delphi projects, and if it lacks a feature, it's open source, just implement it! It will be probably much cheaper then buying lot's of Visual Studio Licenses. I'm not saying Lazarus is better (of course Delphi is better for windows only), but using their arguments this can be a solution (and you also win all wince support, windows 64-bits, linux, mac os x, etc). This way there is no fear of the future. 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