BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Evangelizing Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi OO design View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Corinna Guest Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject: Evangelizing How do you evangelize OOP without coming across as "this is the *right way* to write software", and so forth? I know that our software can be dramatically improved, resulting in quicker modifications and bug fixing, but I don't want to alienate people who might be comfortable with their tried-and-true (but impossible for a new hire to understand) ways of doing things. -Corinna Back to top Scott Roberts Guest Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing "Corinna" <schultz (AT) harlingen (DOT) isd.tenet.edu> wrote Quote: How do you evangelize OOP without coming across as "this is the *right way* to write software", and so forth? I know that our software can be dramatically improved, resulting in quicker modifications and bug fixing, but I don't want to alienate people who might be comfortable with their tried-and-true (but impossible for a new hire to understand) ways of doing things. In my experience, people either get it or they don't. If they get it, they want to do *everything* OOP (I'm guilty of that). If they don't get it, they just see it as overly complex and unnecessary. I've not been able to change anyone's mind. Maybe point out that all "new" languages are moving toward OOP. Point out that .Net is all OOP. Java is based in OOP. J2EE is all about OOP. There must be something to it. Let them know that if they ever change jobs it'd be good to be able to put OOP on the resume (and mean it). Back to top Wayne Niddery [TeamB] Guest Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Corinna wrote: Quote: How do you evangelize OOP without coming across as "this is the *right way* to write software", But it is! <g> -- Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com) RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html In a tornado, even turkeys can fly. - unknown Back to top matsonusaNOSPAM@yahoo.com Guest Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:31:14 -0500, "Corinna" <schultz (AT) harlingen (DOT) isd.tenet.edu> wrote: Quote: How do you evangelize OOP without coming across as "this is the *right way* to write software", and so forth? I know that our software can be dramatically improved, resulting in quicker modifications and bug fixing, but I don't want to alienate people who might be comfortable with their tried-and-true (but impossible for a new hire to understand) ways of doing things. -Corinna Developers that want to continue in this career for very long MUST learn OOP. As pointed out by Scott, the NNT (next new thing) will most always be OO-based. Old farts like me began in Assembler or Cobol/Fortran. Many of us were "forced" to learn "C" as we traveled from one site to another, a painful experience but vital to learning form-based apps. I never quite learned my way around MS's "C++" (1) because of the Mars-like docs, and (2) MS's tendency to alienate it's developer base with towering fees. I can't count the number of employer-given instruction I sat through on OOD, and while understanding the concepts perfectly, making the leap to applying it through a language lost me. Stumbling upon the Delphi2 RAD in the mid-90's was a refreshing cool breeze; Object Pascal was non-complex (for a "C" guy) and layman documentation was plentiful (and growing). FINALLY - I "got it". But beyond Inheritance and Polymorphism, there's not much to say about the bennies of OO languages, especially for those old-timers that travel with their own tried-and-proven libs. One thing OOD does do is improve one's code layout practices. I don't use it for everything, but I do think it's elegant and helps me solve problems faster than not using OOD. It's also FORCED me to plan ahead generally a good thing, in spite of my barking. JJ Back to top Riki Wiki Guest Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Hoi Matt Good post, but the way you have posted the others in the thread will never see you message, because you have posted to a non Borland news server. Take a look here: <http://tinyurl.com/8m5nw> which links to <http://delphi.wikicities.com/wiki/Delphi_Newsgroups> Back to top Peter Morris [Droopy eyes Guest Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Ask how they would evangelize RDBMS. Once they have finished, tell them that OPF does all of that + this list..... <Insert your own good points here, such as single-point changes etc> -- Pete ==== ECO Modeler, Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, FastStrings http://www.droopyeyes.com Read or write articles on just about anything http://www.HowToDoThings.com My blog http://blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/ Back to top Jarle Stabell Guest Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Corinna wrote: Quote: How do you evangelize OOP without coming across as "this is the *right way* to write software", and so forth? Tell them the truth, that OOP is not the *right way* to write software, but for many things, it is currently the best way. :-) Cheers, Jarle Back to top Corinna Guest Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing "Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software]" <pete (AT) NO_droopyeyes_SPAM (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4323f802$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Ask how they would evangelize RDBMS. Once they have finished, tell them that OPF does all of that + this list..... Insert your own good points here, such as single-point changes etc But there's such a steep learning curve... I'm happy copying and pasting... I understand the code better this way... Maybe the best way is to let them see you doing OOP in your code, and eventually, they'll be impressed at its elegance, and wonder why you can rip out changes so quickly, and why *your* code never seems to have many bugs... P.S. We just recently jumped on the DB server bandwagon... Moving from Paradox flat file-system based tables to Advantage database server. My job these past few months was to do the conversion. So I've seen the "skeletons" that live in our code... I *know* you guys are going to say, "but it shouldn't have taken a couple of months!" -Corinna Back to top Peter Morris [Droopy eyes Guest Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Quote: But there's such a steep learning curve... I'm happy copying and pasting... I understand the code better this way... I'm sorry, but anybody who does not understand OOP these days needs training or firing. Everyone (especially Delphi developers) should understand how to write classes, use polymorphism, and understand their benefits. Designing an application using OOP just makes sense. Having those classes persistent is just a detail. I wonder if the copy/paste crowd at your place would rather copy/paste a class from the VCL or subclass it? -- Pete ==== ECO Modeler, Audio compression components, DIB graphics controls, FastStrings http://www.droopyeyes.com Read or write articles on just about anything http://www.HowToDoThings.com My blog http://blogs.slcdug.org/petermorris/ Back to top Cristian Nicola Guest Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing For many things it is .. but there are things for which it isnt .. Over-oop is very usual in places where speed is not an issue but the difference between a record/pointer/api and a class/object can be huge when speed is the most important factor (also when storage is an issue). Kind regards, Cristian Nicola "Jarle Stabell" <jarle (AT) remove_stuff_dlogikk_spam_kills_email (DOT) com> wrote in message news:43245bdb (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Tell them the truth, that OOP is not the *right way* to write software, but for many things, it is currently the best way. Back to top Joanna Carter (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing "Cristian Nicola" <n_cristian (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> a écrit dans le message de news: 4325b67a$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: For many things it is .. but there are things for which it isnt .. Over-oop is very usual in places where speed is not an issue but the difference between a record/pointer/api and a class/object can be huge when speed is the most important factor (also when storage is an issue). As from the introduction, you really can't "over-OOP" an application. Everything in .NET is a either a class or an interface. Yes, you have value types but even those are related to System.Object and you can call methods like ToString() on anything you like. If you really need pointers and access to Win32 API, then that is still available through unsafe code and PInvoke. So you really have the best of both worlds in that you can invoke legacy code from well constructed OO code. After nearly 15 years in the industry, hearing folks saying "OO will never catch on" and "we really don't need OO", we finally have a completely OO framework in .NET. Isn't it about time these Luddites realised that they are spending more time and effort avoiding training into OO than they say they are saving not training. I was brought into one company to design an "OO GUI" and ended up supplying them with a class library that there were able to use to solve three different application designs. If you don't believe that OO can be as fast as non-OO, then give call me in to show you how it should be done. Joanna -- Joanna Carter (TeamB) Consultant Software Engineer TeamBUG support for UK-BUG TeamMM support for ModelMaker Back to top Peter Morris [Droopy eyes Guest Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Quote: If you don't believe that OO can be as fast as non-OO, then give call me in to show you how it should be done. You're addressing someone who drops into ASM to tighten loops, I don't think you can win :-) Back to top Jens Gruschel Guest Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Quote: If you don't believe that OO can be as fast as non-OO, then give call me in to show you how it should be done. While I agree to everything you said, there are exceptions, especially graphics, sound, video etc. I see no reason not to use OOP for such applications, but sometimes a few time critical things really require to use records and pointers. Of course that's no excuse not to use OOP for most parts of the application. And even low level things (with asm) can be put into beautiful classes, ready to use in a well designed application. Probably a good example is DirectX: you have nice interfaces for everything, but behind the scenes (in the DirectX DLLs and the graphic drivers) I doubt everything is OOP. Jens -- Jens Gruschel http://www.pegtop.net Back to top Wayne Niddery [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Cristian Nicola wrote: Quote: Over-oop is very usual in places where speed is not an issue but the difference between a record/pointer/api and a class/object can be huge when speed is the most important factor (also when storage is an issue). *Bad* oop can certainly cause a performance issue as can any bad code. As long as it is good oop, there cannot be "over-oop". The act of allocating space for a class is no slower than for a record or any other memory allocation. What you do in the constructor *can* make a difference of course. -- Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com) RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html "The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." - Harlan Ellison Back to top Cristian Nicola Guest Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Evangelizing Hi Joanna! I was expecting to get these flames - and to be honest is a honnour to stand correct by you. I should save this e-mail for further reference :D The newsgroup is oodesign and the original post did not mentioned exclusivelly .net world. And some of us may be working just in win32 world. As about using pointers/records things i tend to organize them as would classes be like: TMyRecord = record .... end; function RecordDoSomeWork(aRec:TMyRecord):boolean; .... So they are pretty close to a class structure. Re OOP catchon: not only that i think OOP should catch on, but i would advise so. We are all in the office huge fans of your articles/posts and we tend to use design patterns as much as possible. I know the future is .Net but i think people these days don't learn enough about programming and computers. I think just jumping to state OOP is the solution for everything and OOP is better than anything else is an over-statement. There will always be a niche where OOP is not a solution (that not to mention the Lisp type of languages that will never have OOP). Re Speed: Not only that i don't believe OOP can be as fast as non-OOP but i'm sure it can't be. Assume a collection that sole existance is to be read from a storage and then send to a socket. A normal class would have 4 methods :constructor/destructor/loadfromstorage/sendtosocket. Any of these function is going to be slower in OOP model due to extra code. If that would have been an interface then things would have been even slower due to the reference counting. Assume this collection is in the range of billions and that you have to read it quite a few times then the processing difference it can be quite large.. Now if we would talk about development time, debug time, enhancement time then yes OOP it is in pretty much all the cases faster/better than non-oop code, but i was merely pointing out that OOP is not the answer to everything. People should not stop learning about pointers or lists just because there is ECO out-there... The nature of my job forces me most of the time to count/care the cpu cycles (we're working with huge sets of data and even one extra cpu cycle it can make a huge difference). As Peter said only the other week i was asking on basm on how to install an exception handler without using try .. except :D Just my 2p. Cristian Nicola "Joanna Carter (TeamB)" <joanna (AT) nospam (DOT) co.uk> wrote Quote: As from the introduction, you really can't "over-OOP" an application. Everything in .NET is a either a class or an interface. Yes, you have value types but even those are related to System.Object and you can call methods like ToString() on anything you like. If you really need pointers and access to Win32 API, then that is still available through unsafe code and PInvoke. So you really have the best of both worlds in that you can invoke legacy code from well constructed OO code. After nearly 15 years in the industry, hearing folks saying "OO will never catch on" and "we really don't need OO", we finally have a completely OO framework in .NET. Isn't it about time these Luddites realised that they are spending more time and effort avoiding training into OO than they say they are saving not training. I was brought into one company to design an "OO GUI" and ended up supplying them with a class library that there were able to use to solve three different application designs. If you don't believe that OO can be as fast as non-OO, then give call me in to show you how it should be done. 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