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Peter Sleuth
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 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:48 am Post subject: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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if I might add a speculative uneducated guess (I donīt have any background
info, I donīt work for Borland nor do I have any other source of information
at Borland), I would assume the following:
Speculative guess: on BorCon, Borland will announce a Corporate Roadmap that
will bring us
====> a single, unified development IDE for Java, Delphi, C++ and C# until
2006 <====
The details:
Borland recognizes that the development IDE is a primary part (the core
part) of their ALM strategy. Currently they have two IDE-frameworks/product
lines:
- Primetime (JBuilder/C++BuilderX)
- Galileo/BDS (Delphi/C#Builder/former C++Builder)
All their ALM-tools, such as CaliberRM have to be integrated into both
IDE-frameworks, otherwise their ALM-strategy will be halfheartedly only.
While the latest JBuilder-release has a superb CaliberRM-integration, Delphi
so far has only a browser-based integration with CaliberRM in Delphi8, and
it is already outdated (supports only CaliberRM 5.x) and no new integration
has yet been released. That shows that Borland does not have the resources
to continually enhance both IDE-frameworks at the same speed, Delphi/Galileo
already seems to lack in ALM-terms behind JBuilder/primetime.
Other ALM-tools such as Together are available for JBuilder and even
Visual-Studio.NET, but not for Delphi (so far). Furtheron, their current
C++BuilderX and C#Builder-products are not very successful, partially due to
a lack of resources to add unique features to the products.
There is only one logical conclusion to this problem:
===>>> Borland will announce a roadmap where until 2006 all its IDEs will be
merged into a single, unified super IDE. <<<===
Then they could concentrate all their IDE-development teams from both the
Java group and the .NET-business unit at borland on this unified IDE, this
would be far more efficient then continously developing two separate
IDE-frameworks (primetime and Galileo/BDS) and continuously developing
ALM-integrations for both.
Borland would once more be the switzerland of software development,
supporting the most important programming languages and frameworks all from
within one unified IDE. Would fit quite well with their Janeva-product line,
too, the unified IDE could also be bundled with JDataStore and their new
..NET-database product.
That would mean that Borland would have a unified IDE in 2006 that would
support Java, C++, Delphi, C# and probably J# and VB.Net. Such a beast could
easily fight off most other Java-IDEs such as Eclipse (that already has some
very rudimentary thirdparty-support for C++ and C#) and would also be a
viable competitor for Visual Studio.NET. Where VS.NET gives you C#, VB.NET,
C++ and J#, Borlands new unified IDE will give you Java, C#, C++ and Delphi,
or to put it in other words, it would allow you to develop for the Java/J2EE
platform, the .NET-platform and the Win32-platform, all from within a single
unified IDE. Furtheron, Java developers would be able to use technologies
such as J2EE and ASP.NET (via J#) all from within the same IDE, giving them
the best of both worlds in one IDE. This would be a unique selling point to
all Fortune 1000 customers that probably want to develop their server
functionality in Java and their frontends on .NET, and also might want to
maintain legacy apps written in VB or Delphi from within the same unified
IDE.
From a technical standpoint, Borlands new 'ueber'-IDE would be based on
JBuilder/primetime, as this IDE is probably a bit more advanced then the
Galileo-line, offers far more addins and ALM-integrations compared to
Galileo-based IDEs, and also works cross-plattform (could easily work as a
c#-IDE on Linux targeting mono, or hosting the kylix-compiler on linux,
too).
As we have all seen with C++BuilderX, offering a Java-based IDE for other
languages is a risky adventure that might not succeed, because previous
Delphi and C++Builder6-users might not accept a Java-based IDE. But this
time Borland would make it better, C++BuilderX had conceptually a good IDE
approach, but the development team working on it was just far too small and
underfunded, the lack of a Win32-based VCL form-designer not to mention.
This time they have learned their lesson, they will throw all their
IDE-development teams on it, to make sure that even both C++Builder and
Delphi-users will accept a new primetime/Java-based IDE. To achieve this,
the new IDE (its Windows-edition only) must be able to host Win32-based
VCL-formdesigners, furtheron most Delphi- and C++Builder specific
functionality must be taken from the existing Delphi-IDE and integrated as
Win32-based addins into the new IDE. The new IDE must also be able to host
..NET-based formdesigners, so that the most of the current
C#Builder-functionality can be integrated into the new IDE aswell, allowing
to design WinForms and using ASP.NET. After all, this wouldnīt be a pure
Java-based IDE anymore, but an IDE derived from the Java-based primetime
framework with quite a lot Win32- and .NET code in it (windows edition of
the IDE-only) (remember that the Galileo/Delphi-IDE is also not exclusively
written in Delphi, some parts are in C++, others in other languages too).
In the end, the new IDE would look like this:
windows edition of the IDE:
take JBuilder, put all functionality from C++BuilderX into it, let it use
the Delphi-compiler, allow it to host a Win32-based VCL-FormDesigner for
Delphi and C++, integrate most functionality from the Delphi-IDE into it by
either emulating it or hosting it as Win32-addins, put C# into it, let it
allow to host a .Net-based FormDesigner for WinForms and ASP.NET, put the
best ideas from VS.NET into it
linux edition of the IDE:
take JBuilder, put all functionality from C++BuilderX into it, put the
Kylix-compiler into, put C# into it targeting mono.
solaris + macOSX-edition
take JBuilder and put all functionality from C++BuilderX with it.
In addition, throw all current and future ALM-integrations and addins for
JBuilder into it, in addition, probably add a compatibility layer that
allows the IDE to execute at least some of the current Delphi-IDE addins (in
the windows-edition of the IDE).
et voila, this is Borlands new innovative unified killer IDE in 2006.
Furtheron, Borland would bundle for a time-period of two years their (then)
old D9-IDE with the product, so that previous Delphi customers could for a
transition period use both the old Galileo-based IDE and the new unified
primetime-based IDE for Delphi-development, thus reducing criticism from the
Delphi-community and easing migration to the new unified IDE.
Would Delphi and C++Builder users accept such a unified Java-based IDE for
..NET/Win32/Java-development from Borland and buy into it?
Would Borland have enough manpower to create such a beast?
Would Borlands Java-competitors such as IBM, IntelliJ, Bea, SUN or Oracle
follow with similar IDEs that support .NET-development from within
Java-IDEs?
Would Microsoft keep Visual-Studio.NET a pure .NET-only IDE, thus ignoring
the opportunity to integrate part of the huge Java/J2EE-IDE-market and thus
allowing Borland to capture all of the lucrative market segment for a
unified Java/.NET IDE and the unified ALM-solutions for this IDE?
Best regards,
Peter Sleuth
P.S.:
The unified IDE-strategy could be complemented by a similar plan to extend
Borlands J2EE-server (Borland Enterprise Server) with .NET-hosting
functionality (of course on Windows only (probably later on linux too with
mono?)), thus letting him execute both J2EE and .NET-server-apps (in
different processes, of course). This would be the unified App-Server
strategy, again uniting the best of both worlds. Technically this would mean
hosting the .NET-Runtime from within BES, not an easy task, but probably
achievable.
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Max
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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| Quote: | Would Delphi and C++Builder users accept such a unified Java-based IDE for
.NET/Win32/Java-development from Borland and buy into it?
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No.
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zedd
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Let's just hope that by 'Corporate Roadmap' it was just meant
'Borland Roadmap', and that they plan to now announce a clear
roadmap for their products.... not that Inprise is back.
Z
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Ender
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Peter Sleuth wrote:
| Quote: | Would Borland have enough manpower to create such a beast?
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This may be end of Borland. Putting all eggs into one backet a bit
dangerous isn't? If Borland try to create one super IDE there may be
following problems:
1. Such IDE may have not necessary functionality. For example part of
IDE that responsible for building of projects in C++ completely not
neccessary for Delphi.
2. Resource consumption. Delphi 8 already slow. Java based IDE will be
slower. Despite all screams of Java-lovers about "improved speed" and
benchmark results, Java apps easily recognizable by eyes. Typical
features of Java app is non standard widget set, damn slow GUI
performance even on latest P4, and HDD led blinking because of constant
swapping on machine with half of gig of memory.
3. Bugs. Just look on count of not fixed bugs in Quality Central.
Borland already failed to deliver fixes on regular basis for current
development environments and libraries. With product of that complexity
their Q&A will take huge time to roll-out it from testing.
4. Price. Most likely it will be higher than current.
I do not want to buy overloaded, overpriced, overbugged monster.
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Arthur Hoornweg
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Peter Sleuth wrote:
| Quote: | Would Delphi and C++Builder users accept such a unified Java-based IDE for
.NET/Win32/Java-development from Borland and buy into it?
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Me, personally, never. Not if it's Java based.
Compare it with the acceptance of Java-based Office suites
that compete with MSoffice - it's close to zero.
The IDE is my primary working environment and needs to be
as fast as possible.
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(please remove the ".net" from my e-mail address)
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Eric Grange
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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| Quote: | ====> a single, unified development IDE for Java, Delphi, C++ and C# until
2006 <====
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Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none?
If such a creature is fast and responsive (aka neither .Net nor
Java based), comes with significant improvements to native Delphi,
it could be fun, otherwise it is pitting itself straight against
Visual Studio and Eclipse, both practically free competitors
(as in beer), so even a technical victory could turn out as a
financial rout.
Besides D. Thorpe mentionned a market noone has seen,
a multi-language IDE rather qualifies has "the" market
where everyone is. ;)
Eric
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Ingvar Nilsen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Sleuth wrote:
Would Delphi and C++Builder users accept such a unified Java-based
IDE for .NET/Win32/Java-development from Borland and buy into it?
Me, personally, never. Not if it's Java based. Compare it with the
acceptance of Java-based Office suites that compete with MSoffice -
it's close to zero.
The IDE is my primary working environment and needs to be as fast as
possible.
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AFAIK such an IDE would be sluggish on a 1 GHz CPU with 500 Mb RAM
compared to Delphi 1 on my ancient 66 MHz DX with 8 Mb of RAM.
--
Ingvar Nilsen
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Charles McAllister
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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"Max" <nospam (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | Would Delphi and C++Builder users accept such a unified Java-based IDE
for
.NET/Win32/Java-development from Borland and buy into it?
No.
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This thread is reminding me of McLaughlin group. :)
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SiegfriedN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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| Quote: |
Then they could concentrate all their IDE-development teams from both the
Java group and the .NET-business unit at borland on this unified IDE, this
would be far more efficient then continously developing two separate
IDE-frameworks (primetime and Galileo/BDS) and continuously developing
ALM-integrations for both.
...
From a technical standpoint, Borlands new 'ueber'-IDE would be based on
JBuilder/primetime, as this IDE is probably a bit more advanced then the
Galileo-line, offers far more addins and ALM-integrations compared to
Galileo-based IDEs, and also works cross-plattform (could easily work as a
c#-IDE on Linux targeting mono, or hosting the kylix-compiler on linux,
too).
.... |
I think will be impossible to create a Java based forms designer for
win32, CLX, GTK#, windows.forms, etc. so Primetime is a waste of
time...unless Borland will prove me wrong..
imo Galileo on Ms.Net is also a waste of Borland time.
Borland has a much better chance in creating a unified IDE with the
Galileo IDE using Mono.Net and GTK# now or system.windows.forms when
it's ready in Mono.Net framework.
siegs
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Arthur Hoornweg
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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SiegfriedN wrote:
| Quote: | Borland has a much better chance in creating a unified IDE with the
Galileo IDE using Mono.Net and GTK# now or system.windows.forms when
it's ready in Mono.Net framework.
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I think it would make more sense to write such an IDE in C++ using
the Qt framework. Native code on Win32, Mac OSX, Linux. What more
can a guy want?
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(please remove the ".net" from my e-mail address)
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Peter Sleuth
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlands new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Ender,
"Ender" <linuxmustdie (AT) hotmeil (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | Peter Sleuth wrote:
Would Borland have enough manpower to create such a beast?
This may be end of Borland. Putting all eggs into one backet a bit
dangerous isn't? If Borland try to create one super IDE there may be
following problems:
1. Such IDE may have not necessary functionality. For example part of
IDE that responsible for building of projects in C++ completely not
neccessary for Delphi.
|
That?s correct, but enhanced C++ project management is already included in
C++BuilderX and hence Primetime, so not much additional effort required.
| Quote: | 2. Resource consumption. Delphi 8 already slow. Java based IDE will be
slower. Despite all screams of Java-lovers about "improved speed" and
benchmark results, Java apps easily recognizable by eyes. Typical
features of Java app is non standard widget set, damn slow GUI
performance even on latest P4, and HDD led blinking because of constant
swapping on machine with half of gig of memory.
|
Have a look at the latest NetBeans Java IDE from sun. You won?t be able to
recognize by eyes that it is Java, because it offers complete XP Themeing
emulation, and is actually rather fast. Furtheron, if Borland would offer a
unified IDE in the 2006/2007-time frame, until then all developers would
easily have at least one gigabyte of RAM, so this wouldn?t be an issue then
anymore.
| Quote: | 3. Bugs. Just look on count of not fixed bugs in Quality Central.
Borland already failed to deliver fixes on regular basis for current
development environments and libraries. With product of that complexity
their Q&A will take huge time to roll-out it from testing.
|
Here I agree.
| Quote: | 4. Price. Most likely it will be higher than current.
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Developing one unified IDE might be cheaper for Borland than continuously
developing two separate IDE-frameworks (Galileo and Primetime).
| Quote: | I do not want to buy overloaded, overpriced, overbugged monster.
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JBuilder is already overloaded, some say that VS.NET is also overloaded.
Regards,
-Peter
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Peter Sleuth
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Arthur,
"Arthur Hoornweg" <arthur.hoornweg (AT) wanadoo (DOT) nl.net> wrote
| Quote: | Peter Sleuth wrote:
Would Delphi and C++Builder users accept such a unified Java-based IDE
for .NET/Win32/Java-development from Borland and buy into it?
Me, personally, never. Not if it's Java based.
Compare it with the acceptance of Java-based Office suites
that compete with MSoffice - it's close to zero.
|
Times are changing. And developers usually have better hardware then
end-users, thus acceptance of a Java-based IDE would be higher.
| Quote: | The IDE is my primary working environment and needs to be
as fast as possible.
|
Java for IDEs is almost fast enough today, and will easily be in 2-3 years,
which would be the time-frame for a unified IDE.
| Quote: |
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(please remove the ".net" from my e-mail address)
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Best regards,
-Peter
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Peter Sleuth
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Ingvar,
"Ingvar Nilsen" <telcontr (AT) online-not-this-part- (DOT) no> wrote
| Quote: | Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
Peter Sleuth wrote:
Would Delphi and C++Builder users accept such a unified Java-based
IDE for .NET/Win32/Java-development from Borland and buy into it?
Me, personally, never. Not if it's Java based. Compare it with the
acceptance of Java-based Office suites that compete with MSoffice -
it's close to zero.
The IDE is my primary working environment and needs to be as fast as
possible.
AFAIK such an IDE would be sluggish on a 1 GHz CPU with 500 Mb RAM
compared to Delphi 1 on my ancient 66 MHz DX with 8 Mb of RAM.
|
In 2007, I guess most developers will have a 4Ghz CPU with 2 Gigabyte of
RAM, the IDE will be fast enough for most developers then.
Best regards,
-Peter
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zedd
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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| Quote: | Times are changing. And developers usually have better hardware then
end-users, thus acceptance of a Java-based IDE would be higher.
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By that time, they will have higher requirements.
| Quote: | Java for IDEs is almost fast enough today, and will easily be
in 2-3 years, which would be the time-frame for a unified IDE.
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We have been hearing that every year since Java was created,
that it would run today's software pretty well tomorrow,
but guess what, each tomorrow we're not using yesterday's
software.
Just imagine where we could be if all that energy that was wasted
in trying to optimize Java into usability had been put to proper use
right from the start... we certainly wouldn't be hearing promises
about Java finally catching up next year.
Z
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SiegfriedN
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Guess for Borlandīs new 'Corporate Roadmap' |
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Arthur Hoornweg wrote:
....
| Quote: | I think it would make more sense to write such an IDE in C++ using
the Qt framework. Native code on Win32, Mac OSX, Linux. What more
can a guy want?
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Sounds like a good idea!
but then politically speaking which C++ compiler will Borland use? GCC?
Borland seems to be moving away from native compiler technology..
Siegs
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