BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Languages for developing for .NET Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Vladimir Stefanovic Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:03 pm    Post subject: Languages for developing for .NET Hi, What is the real benefit of using C++ or Pascal and not C# for programming for .NET? AFAIK, C# is specially designed for .NET. I think that switching from C++ to C# is 'painless' in comparison to switching from Win32 to .NET concept. Also, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that even if you decide to use C++ for .NET you have to follow the .NET concept, which means no header files any more, modules referencing with namespace(s) not include(s), and similar. Such code does not look any more on the C++ code that I use now. Best regards, Vladimir Stefanovic Back to top Russell Hind Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET Vladimir Stefanovic wrote: Quote: Hi, What is the real benefit of using C++ or Pascal and not C# for programming for .NET? AFAIK, C# is specially designed for .NET. For us, I ported an application to managed C++. Advantage was 95% of the code was common between BCB and VS.Net. The 5% that was different was a small set of standard C++ wrappers around both VCL controls and ..Net controls. That would be a big advantage for us. Cheers Russell Back to top Alisdair Meredith [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET Vladimir Stefanovic wrote: Quote: What is the real benefit of using C++ or Pascal and not C# for programming for .NET? AFAIK, C# is specially designed for .NET. For me, 'deterministic destruction, the RAII concept. This is coming in the next version of Visual Studio with the C++/CLI binding, but still unique to C++ amd not available for C# <g> Quote: I think that switching from C++ to C# is 'painless' in comparison to switching from Win32 to .NET concept. Not really, because suddenly user code is forced to manage all the library resources (as with Delphi/Java and all those finally blocks) We are still waiting to see how well .NET generics line up against C++ templates. There are some strong overlaps in the type-safety area, but very different functionality elsewhere. Quote: Also, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that even if you decide to use C++ for .NET you have to follow the .NET concept, which means no header files any more, modules referencing with namespace(s) not include(s), and similar. Such code does not look any more on the C++ code that I use now. Not really, although that is probably how you will work with non-C++ libraries. In other words, you can still work with headers, lib files, and all the familiar C++ files so long as you are working with C++ (eg. STL, Boost, your existing code) When you want to deal with the .NET API, or classes implemented in other .NET languages, then you will probably be using some other inclusion mechanism. AlisdairM(TeamB) Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET "Vladimir Stefanovic" <spam (AT) not (DOT) needed> wrote Quote: What is the real benefit of using C++ or Pascal and not C# for programming for .NET? AFAIK, C# is specially designed for .NET. From what was shown at BorCon regarding the new C++/CLI architecture, things like pointers and direct memory accessing are going to be preserved. C++ will be the only .NET language that supports that. I've heard it said that C++ is being primed to become the language of choice on .NET because of its strong features over C# and other .NET languages. Gambit Back to top mr_organic Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET "Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" <no.spam (AT) no (DOT) spam.com> wrote in news:41c724cc$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: Quote: From what was shown at BorCon regarding the new C++/CLI architecture, things like pointers and direct memory accessing are going to be preserved. C++ will be the only .NET language that supports that. I've heard it said that C++ is being primed to become the language of choice on .NET because of its strong features over C# and other .NET languages. Gambit Eh - I doubt it. C# is (and has always been) the "standard" .NET language, and I don't expect that to change. The only advantage that C++ brings to the table (now that C# supports generics) is its ability to directly manipulate memory via pointers -- something that .NET explicitly tries to keep you from doing. If you program for pure performance and/or have to integrate a lot of legacy C++ code with new .NET stuff, then C++/CLI makes sense. But for a lot of new projects, C++ makes no real sense -- the learning curve is so shallow that it makes more sense to just use C# at the get-go. As an application developer, I like C# a lot more than C++ for almost everything. The language is cleaner, the standard frameworks (ADO.NET especially) give you most of the benefits of the VCL with little of the pain, and execution speed is pretty good. I'm finding it more and more difficult to find excuses to use C++ at all, but like I said, this is from an application-developer standpoint. I'm not writing games or math- intensive stuff or device drivers. *Shrug* Whatever gets you down the road, I guess. Regards, mr_organic Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET "Alisdair Meredith [TeamB]" <alisdair.NO.SPAM.PLEASE.meredith (AT) uk (DOT) renaultf1.com> wrote: Quote: Vladimir Stefanovic wrote: What is the real benefit of using C++ or Pascal and not C# for programming for .NET? AFAIK, C# is specially designed for .NET. For me, 'deterministic destruction, the RAII concept. This is coming in the next version of Visual Studio with the C++/CLI binding, but still unique to C++ amd not available for C# But is available today in Delphi for .NET. Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET Quote: [...] Eh - I doubt it. C# is (and has always been) the "standard" .NET language, and I don't expect that to change. The only advantage that C++ brings to the table (now that C# supports generics) is its ability to directly manipulate memory via pointers -- something that .NET explicitly I wonder why nobody mentions unsafe code blocks, which enables C# to use pointers and direct memory access, too ? I´m not that familiar with unsafe code blocks in C#, since i prefered to use C++ if i had to do direct memory access, so i can´t comment on any restrictions. At least i wouldn´t call C++ to be the only language using pointers and direct memory access - or am i wrong ? And i wonder if Delphi allows unsafe code blocks too ? Quote: tries to keep you from doing. If you program for pure performance and/or have to integrate a lot of legacy C++ code with new .NET stuff, then C++/CLI makes sense. But for a lot of new projects, C++ makes no real sense -- the learning curve is so shallow that it makes more sense to just use C# at the get-go. [...] I agree. C++ will optimize better than C#, but most times i still would prefer C# or Delphi, at least for applications, since code in these languages compiles much faster than C++ code. What i miss(ed) somewhat in C# is the templates, STL and deterministic destruction / disposing. Ok, i have the using keyword in C#, but it would be a little bit more convenient for a C++ programmer, if objects in C# could be allocated like stack objects in C++. E.g.: using Object o1(); using Object o2(); ..... instead of: using (Object o1 = new Object()) { using (Object o2 = new Object()) { ... } } But since .NET allows me to mix different languages very easily, i´m free to choose the languages that will fit best for a certain part of my application. Andre Back to top mr_organic Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET "Andre Kaufmann" <_spamx_andre.kaufmann (AT) no-spam_t-online (DOT) de> wrote in news:41c74bec$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: Quote: I agree. C++ will optimize better than C#, I hate to cherry-pick quotes , but I was struck by this statement. I disagree that C++/CLI "will optimize better" simply because it will compile to just about the same CIL as C# will. If the code is to run on the CLR, then there's no difference in "optimization" between C#, C++/CLI, or even Visual Basic(!!). As far as the .NET CLR is concerned, you should probably just use the language that supports the idiom you like best. If you're expecting some massive speed boost by using C++ instead of C#, you're going to be badly disappointed. mr_organic Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffovercash (AT) mindspring (DOT) com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:41c7486b$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: "Alisdair Meredith [TeamB]" [email]alisdair.NO.SPAM.PLEASE.meredith (AT) uk (DOT) renaultf1.com[/email]> wrote: Vladimir Stefanovic wrote: [...] For me, 'deterministic destruction, the RAII concept. This is coming in the next version of Visual Studio with the C++/CLI binding, but still unique to C++ amd not available for C# But is available today in Delphi for .NET. RAII ? You still have to call free in Delphi, or did i miss something ? Though i like the way Borland has done the smooth transition from Win32 to .NET. You can go on and code as you´ve been used to, something that will be comparable possible for C++ code only with C++/CLI, but not with manged C++ - i think that´s what you´ve meant ? Andre Back to top Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET "mr_organic" <mr_organic (AT) yourmamashouse (DOT) com> writes: Quote: "Andre Kaufmann" <_spamx_andre.kaufmann (AT) no-spam_t-online (DOT) de> wrote in news:41c74bec$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: I agree. C++ will optimize better than C#, I hate to cherry-pick quotes , but I was struck by this statement. I disagree that C++/CLI "will optimize better" simply because it will compile to just about the same CIL as C# will. If the code is to run on the CLR, then there's no difference in "optimization" between C#, C++/CLI, or even Visual Basic(!!). As far as the .NET CLR is concerned, you should probably just use the language that supports the idiom you like best. If you're expecting some massive speed boost by using C++ instead of C#, you're going to be badly disappointed. One of the points that Herb Sutter made at BorCon was basically that, the way C++ is designed, it works great with garbage collectors because compared to most languages, C++ produces less garbage. He cited a study where code was written in C# that was way too slow, and after profiling, they found that over 70% of the time was spent in what appeared to be simple code, but the usage of the GC was excessive. They found that they could explicitly release an object inside a loop and the GC overhead dramatically dropped. The exercize took a couple of hours until it was well tuned and running fine in C#. The point he was making in C++ is that such efforts would not have been necessary had the code been written in C++. The way C++ is designed, the generated code would have already done what they had to debug/optimize by hand. Additionally, C++ (especially Microsoft's version of it) has a much more mature optimizer. And optimized code even in the CLI runs faster. The just-in-time optimizations and compilations are not a substitute for an initially well-generated program. -- Chris (TeamB); Back to top Giuliano Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:03:20 +0100, "Vladimir Stefanovic" <spam (AT) not (DOT) needed> wrote: Quote: Hi, What is the real benefit of using C++ or Pascal and not C# for programming for .NET? AFAIK, C# is specially designed for .NET. [snip] Hi, have a look at: http://tinyurl.com/6xsj3 Regards Giuliano Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET "Giuliano" <gcardinali (AT) remove (DOT) adhoc.net> wrote Quote: have a look at: http://tinyurl.com/6xsj3 Very nice Thanks. Gambit Back to top Russell Hind Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) wrote: Quote: Additionally, C++ (especially Microsoft's version of it) has a much more mature optimizer. And optimized code even in the CLI runs faster. The just-in-time optimizations and compilations are not a substitute for an initially well-generated program. From what I've read, MS link-time code generation will be available for IL code in VS.Net 2005 so the IL passed to the CLR will be optimised much more than that generated by VB.Net or C# also. I guess they could port this technology to those languages also, but would they bother? Cheers Russell Back to top Kris Golko Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET Quote: RAII ? You still have to call free in Delphi, or did i miss something ? You do miss something, you don't have to call free in Delphi for .Net, you can for backward compatibility. Kris Back to top Vladimir Stefanovic Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Languages for developing for .NET Also, C# does not support multiple inheritance which may be the problem for many those who have much C++ code to be ported. Best regards, Vladimir Stefanovic Russell Hind <noone (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Vladimir Stefanovic wrote: Hi, What is the real benefit of using C++ or Pascal and not C# for programming for .NET? AFAIK, C# is specially designed for .NET. For us, I ported an application to managed C++. Advantage was 95% of the code was common between BCB and VS.Net. The 5% that was different was a small set of standard C++ wrappers around both VCL controls and .Net controls. That would be a big advantage for us. 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