BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message George M. Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Microsoft employee wrote in Channel9 (MSDN forums) We never said: "Forget about Win32" - WinFX will be on the Vista disk http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=93735 Hmm, very interesting! George Back to top Dominic Willems Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" George M. wrote: Quote: Microsoft employee wrote in Channel9 (MSDN forums) We never said: "Forget about Win32" - WinFX will be on the Vista disk Does that mean it'll have a Win32 API...? Back to top Michael Stum Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" "Dominic Willems" <domus.software (AT) removethispandora (DOT) be> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:42eb6540 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: George M. wrote: Microsoft employee wrote in Channel9 (MSDN forums) We never said: "Forget about Win32" - WinFX will be on the Vista disk Does that mean it'll have a Win32 API...? Of course it will. Microsoft is not stupid. If they would remove Win32 Support from Windows Vista, it would be instant suicide. Win32 will be around for a looooooooooooooong time. Back to top Dominic Willems Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Michael Stum wrote: Quote: Microsoft is not stupid. If they would remove Win32 Support from Windows Vista, it would be instant suicide. Yes, that I gathered. lol What I was wondering about was the availability of, for instance, Avalon, through the Win32 API. Circumventing, as we say, the .NET framework... Devious of me, I know, but just curious... Back to top marc hoffman Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Quote: What I was wondering about was the availability of, for instance, Avalon, through the Win32 API. Circumventing, as we say, the .NET framework... Avalon is implemented in managed code (on top of DirectX). Using Avalon and "circumventing" .NET is a contradiction in terms. -- marc hoffman Chief Architect, .NET RemObjects Software http://www.chromesville.com and the fifty-two daughters of the revolution turn the gold to chrome Back to top roman modic Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Hello, "Dominic Willems" <domus.software (AT) removethispandora (DOT) be> wrote Quote: George M. wrote: Microsoft employee wrote in Channel9 (MSDN forums) We never said: "Forget about Win32" - WinFX will be on the Vista disk Does that mean it'll have a Win32 API...? Naturally! Please read more here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/about/#dpc Quote: It's important to note that Windows Vista is heavily emphasizing both application compatibility (existing applications should always just run) and developer compatibility (_all_ features are accessible through _both_ WinFX and Win32). Cheers, Roman Back to top Dominic Willems Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" marc hoffman wrote: Quote: Avalon is implemented in managed code (on top of DirectX). Using Avalon and "circumventing" .NET is a contradiction in terms. Damn. I'm still trying to avoid "the extra layer." I know you're a devout convert, though. :) Back to top Dominic Willems Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" roman modic wrote: Quote: _all_ features are accessible through _both_ WinFX and Win32). This is confusing. Avalon too...? The article doesn't really detail this statement very much. Back to top Jarle Stabell Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" roman modic wrote: Quote: "Dominic Willems" <domus.software (AT) removethispandora (DOT) be> wrote in Does that mean it'll have a Win32 API...? Naturally! Please read more here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/windowsvista/about/#dpc Quote: It's important to note that Windows Vista is heavily emphasizing both application compatibility (existing applications should always just run) and developer compatibility (_all_ features are accessible through _both_ WinFX and Win32). I think MS' message on this is very confusing (not when it comes to whether Win32 will be supported, but to which extent new features will be available to unmanaged code). On the one hand, they say "all features are accessible through both WinFX and Win32", and on the other hand they say that WinFX is managed and that Avalon is exposed through WinFX (implying not exposed through Win32 (except perhaps via P/Invoke)). This statement from a MS blogger confirms Marc's post: "You can't call Avalon from a true unmanaged program, but by using the /clr flag to the Visual C++ compiler, you can create a mixed managed-unmanaged program, where you can seamlessly mix managed and unmanaged API calls." http://blogs.msdn.com/nickkramer/default.aspx Cheers, Jarle Back to top marc hoffman Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Dominic, Quote: Damn. I'm still trying to avoid "the extra layer." I know you're a devout convert, though. Well. Avalon /is/ the extra layer. if you wanna use it, you gotta use it. If you want to avoid the "extra layer", you gotta go directly to DirectX (or directly to the device driver, if you wanna avoid that extra layer, too... -- marc hoffman Chief Architect, .NET RemObjects Software http://www.chromesville.com and the fifty-two daughters of the revolution turn the gold to chrome Back to top Dominic Willems Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" marc hoffman wrote: Quote: Avalon /is/ the extra layer. Behave. I mean that .NET thing. But it's starting to look one'd have to access Avalon through some managed code gimmick in order to use it with Win32. Quote: or directly to the device driver, if you wanna avoid that extra layer, too... Behave. :) Back to top David Clegg Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Dominic Willems wrote: Quote: But it's starting to look one'd have to access Avalon through some managed code gimmick in order to use it with Win32. So, perhaps you are starting to see that this 'managed code gimmick' may very well have something to offer you. -- Cheers, David Clegg [email]dclegg (AT) gmail (DOT) com[/email] Vote 1 http://cc.borland.com/codecentral/ccweb.exe/listing?id=21489 Now supports Google Groups searching with Dyna-extend(tm) technology! QualityCentral. The best way to bug Borland about bugs. http://qc.borland.com "What about those red balls they have on car aerials so you can spot your car in a park? I think all cars should have them." - Homer Simpson Back to top marc hoffman Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" Dominic, Quote: Behave. I mean that .NET thing. I know that's what you meant <g>. But "the .NET thing" is NOT a layer. There's DirectX. And there's Avalon (Windows Presentation Framework, as it's called now) using DirectX. And there's your managed code using WPF. There's no additional/unnecessary "layer" between your code and WPF, nor is there between WPF and DirectX. Your code runs as native x86/x64/IA64 instructions, and it is making direct calls to WPF (also running as native x86/x64/IA64 instructions) - just as your Delphi/Win32 code makes calls to user32.dll. People keep thinking of ..NET as this huge virtual machine that's between your code and the machine - that's NOT the case. -- marc hoffman Chief Architect, .NET RemObjects Software http://www.chromesville.com and the fifty-two daughters of the revolution turn the gold to chrome Back to top Jarle Stabell Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" marc hoffman wrote: Quote: Dominic, Behave. I mean that .NET thing. I know that's what you meant <g>. But "the .NET thing" is NOT a layer. There's DirectX. And there's Avalon (Windows Presentation Framework, as it's called now) using DirectX. And there's your managed code using WPF. There's no additional/unnecessary "layer" between your code and WPF, nor is there between WPF and DirectX. There seems to be something between WPF and DirectX (, which perhaps might become available to native apps?): http://blog.simplegeek.com/PermaLink.aspx/a09c8a32-b4d0-47ce-8186-0c5e7beae66b "MILCORE.DLL is the unmanaged composition engine that Avalon uses for rendering. It is a layer above Direct3D, giving us basic 2D, 3D, Animation, and Composition services (probably a few others i'm forgetting to mention also). The composition engine is unmanaged primarily for interop/performance reasons. The composition engine spends most of it's time talking to Direct3D. In addition, there are multiple customers of the composition engine, including some that can't take a managed code dependency right now. " Cheers, Jarle Back to top Dominic Willems Guest Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Microsoft says... "Don't forget Win32" David Clegg wrote: Quote: So, perhaps you are starting to see that this 'managed code gimmick' may very well have something to offer you. 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