BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  .NET and sharing dll's? Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Arthur Hoornweg Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:40 am    Post subject: .NET and sharing dll's? Don't know in which group to post this, since it has neither to do with the .net API itself nor with any Borland programming language, but a colleague told me that under .NET managed DLL's aren't shared in virtual memory among applications (each app gets its own copy which is not good for memory footprint). I find that somehow hard to imagine, at least in Win32 the DLL/memory mapped file mechanism is certainly one of the greatest features that increases performance. Giving all that up doesn't seem like a good idea. I would be interested to know whether it is true or not! -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Marc Rohloff [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 09:40:10 +0100, Arthur Hoornweg wrote: Quote: I would be interested to know whether it is true or not! I was under the impression that the DLLs where normally shared however none of the JITted code is shared and this is where you will get the larger memory hit. -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff -at- myrealbox -dot- com Back to top Arthur Hoornweg Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Marc Rohloff [TeamB] wrote: Quote: I was under the impression that the DLLs where normally shared however none of the JITted code is shared and this is where you will get the larger memory hit. That's exactly what I meant (user-developed DLL's, written in managed code, not being shared in memory). Can this be avoided by putting them in the GAC? -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Bob Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:06 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? If I'm not mistaken, thats exacly how win32 does it as well. DLLs memory space are not shared across processes. "Arthur Hoornweg" <antispam.hoornweg (AT) casema (DOT) nl.net> wrote Quote: Don't know in which group to post this, since it has neither to do with the .net API itself nor with any Borland programming language, but a colleague told me that under .NET managed DLL's aren't shared in virtual memory among applications (each app gets its own copy which is not good for memory footprint). I find that somehow hard to imagine, at least in Win32 the DLL/memory mapped file mechanism is certainly one of the greatest features that increases performance. Giving all that up doesn't seem like a good idea. I would be interested to know whether it is true or not! -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Arthur Hoornweg Guest Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Bob wrote: Quote: If I'm not mistaken, thats exacly how win32 does it as well. DLLs memory space are not shared across processes. The "code" memory is shared, the "data" memory (heap, stack, data segment) isn't. Each process has its own separate logical address space, of course, but a DLL is opened as a "memory mapped file". This MMF can then be "mapped" into physical memory (in "pages" of 4 kb). These pages can then be mapped into the logical addres spaces of the processes. -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Marc Rohloff [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:45 am    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:32:16 +0100, Arthur Hoornweg wrote: Quote: The "code" memory is shared, the "data" memory (heap, stack, data segment) isn't. Except that for .NET the 'code' is onyl the IL not the JITted ASM code. -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff -at- myrealbox -dot- com Back to top Arthur Hoornweg Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Marc Rohloff [TeamB] schreef: Quote: Except that for .NET the 'code' is onyl the IL not the JITted ASM code. So if I startup the same app ten times, it is JITted 10 times? -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Andrea Raimondi Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Arthur Hoornweg wrote: Quote: So if I startup the same app ten times, it is JITted 10 times? As I understand it, yes. And it occupies 10 times the memory. Cheers, Andrew -- Online thoughts blog http://araimondi.blogspot.com Back to top Marc Rohloff [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 10:15:03 +0100, Andrea Raimondi wrote: Quote: So if I startup the same app ten times, it is JITted 10 times? As I understand it, yes. And it occupies 10 times the memory. And just wait till .NET 2.0 becomes mainstream. If you think performance is bad now wait till you have two CLRs loaded. -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff -at- myrealbox -dot- com Back to top Arthur Hoornweg Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Andrea Raimondi schreef: Quote: As I understand it, yes. And it occupies 10 times the memory. Kinda makes me wonder. If the app is JITted 10 times, the outcome will be the same 10 times. IMHO, it would have been more clever to JIT it only once (at install time, applying all CPU optimizations etcetera) and store the outcome as native code. Or at least to cache the result permanently. Nothing against managed code, but performing the same time-consuming task over and over again for no good reason is a waste of resources. Come to think of it, is it true that MSIL code is pre-compiled when you put it into the GAC? That might be a way to overcome this dilemma. -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Mauro Venturini Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? ngen.exe is there to be used. It does axactly that: compile an assembly and cache it (until a new version appears). "Arthur Hoornweg" <antispam.hoornweg (AT) casema (DOT) nl.net> wrote Quote: Andrea Raimondi schreef: As I understand it, yes. And it occupies 10 times the memory. Kinda makes me wonder. If the app is JITted 10 times, the outcome will be the same 10 times. IMHO, it would have been more clever to JIT it only once (at install time, applying all CPU optimizations etcetera) and store the outcome as native code. Or at least to cache the result permanently. Nothing against managed code, but performing the same time-consuming task over and over again for no good reason is a waste of resources. Come to think of it, is it true that MSIL code is pre-compiled when you put it into the GAC? That might be a way to overcome this dilemma. -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Quote: Kinda makes me wonder. If the app is JITted 10 times, the outcome will be the same 10 times. Theoretically not, since some of the library functions could be inlined in one case, not in another f.i., and some may not be JITted at all in some cases (because never used in those cases), etc. This has the potential to get even more spectacular with generics: the same bit of code can get jitted into gazillions of typesafe variants... or none at all. Thus the same DLL could end up eating anything from a few kilobytes to several megabytes. Eric Back to top Arthur Hoornweg Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Mauro Venturini schreef: Quote: ngen.exe is there to be used. It does axactly that: compile an assembly... OK! That should do the trick. Would there be any reason NOT to use this tool on large applications where speed is important? -- Arthur Hoornweg (In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net" from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to counteract unsollicited mail.) Back to top Nick Hodges [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? Arthur Hoornweg wrote: Quote: Would there be any reason NOT to use this tool on large applications where speed is important? Yes -- because it has no idea abou the platform upon with the resulting EXE will be run, NGEN produces less efficient code than the JIT compiler. -- Nick Hodges -- TeamB Lemanix Corporation -- http://www.lemanix.com Read my Blog -- http://www.lemanix.com/nick Back to top sun Guest Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: .NET and sharing dll's? "Nick Hodges [TeamB]" <nickhodges (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Arthur Hoornweg wrote: Would there be any reason NOT to use this tool on large applications where speed is important? Yes -- because it has no idea abou the platform upon with the resulting EXE will be run, NGEN produces less efficient code than the JIT compiler. AFAIK ngen and JIT compiler uses the same compiler just in different modes and also both run on target machine (as opposite to developer machine) so there should be no performance issues from this point of view. 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