 |
BorlandTalk.com
Borland discussion newsgroups
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Petros Amiridis
Guest
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:58 am Post subject: New freelancer |
 |
|
Hi,
I am about to start my first independent contract for a custom
application. I have one problem. Although I have estimated the cost of
developing the first release, I don't know how to go about offering
support after the first version is out. The application is custom and
will only probably be installed in one customer.
I have thought the following scenarios:
1) Offer an annual service contract of prepaid hours (example 100 hours
* amount per hour)
2) Offer no service contract and bill by the hour whenever I am needed.
Are there other support schemes. I really want to provide best services
to my customer, but I also need to protect myself from wasting my time
on customer site without beeing paid.
According to your experience, what are common/best ways for providing
support to customers that have a custom application made by you?
Thanx,
PS. I am asking here community because I am part of this community
which I respect and I know people whose opinions I value.
--
Petros
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Oliver Townshend
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
| Quote: | 2) Offer no service contract and bill by the hour whenever I am needed.
Are there other support schemes. I really want to provide best services
to my customer, but I also need to protect myself from wasting my time
on customer site without beeing paid.
|
Option 2 is what I normally offer. With the corollary that when I deliver
an application with a fixed price I normally give it a warranty of either 1,
3 or 12 months depending on the client and the job. I normally say that the
application is delivered in working order, but the client should perform
their own application tests. Any problem not drawn to my attention within
the time frame given will be charged for. This way I'm trying to put the
onus on the client to test it. Nothing worse than a phone call a year after
you delivered the application complaining about problems.
If the client doesn't opt for a fixed price, then charge by the hour. Not
charging for your own bugs is of course up to you, and normally a useful
goodwill gesture. Also an incentive not to have bugs in the first place.
Oliver Townshend
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Petros Amiridis
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Oliver Townshend wrote:
| Quote: | If the client doesn't opt for a fixed price, then charge by the hour.
|
Do you mean a fixed price for developing the first version? If I
understood your suggestion is:
1) 2-3 months for developing the application lets say it costs $10000
(I live in Greece and your millage may vary)
2) Offer 3 months of free support (bug fixes, training etc.)
3) After 3 months, everything is billable, by the hour?
--
Petros
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe Hendricks
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Petros Amiridis wrote:
| Quote: | Do you mean a fixed price for
developing the first version? If I
understood your suggestion is:
|
I suggest everything based on hourly billing, including
development, bug-fixing, suppport, training, etc.
--
JoeH
[ write a letter, save a life - http://www.amnesty.org ]
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Petros Amiridis
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Joe Hendricks wrote:
| Quote: | I suggest everything based on hourly billing, including
development, bug-fixing, suppport, training, etc.
|
In that case would you consider it correct to estimate the number of
hours the first version is going to take, multiply that to the hourly
rate and present this as the offer? I mean isn't it common to be bound
by your initial estimation as far as the first version is concerned. Or
is it acceptable to say that it is going to take me 3 months and my
hourly rate is X but I am going to be paid by the actual number of
hours not but the estimated?
Generally how do you go about calculating billing for initial
development.
What about a free period after the first release? Is this good to have?
--
Petros
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Abdullah Kauchali
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Petros Amiridis wrote:
| Quote: | In that case would you consider it correct to estimate the number of
hours the first version is going to take, multiply that to the hourly
rate and present this as the offer? I mean isn't it common to be bound
by your initial estimation as far as the first version is concerned. Or
is it acceptable to say that it is going to take me 3 months and my
hourly rate is X but I am going to be paid by the actual number of
hours not but the estimated?
Generally how do you go about calculating billing for initial
development.
|
Hell, I've only learnt the hard way. The answer to that question lies
primarily with the issue of "requirements". You'll be surprised how
often we can get sucked in to the idea of "we'll figure it out when we
get there - just give me a quote" - often accompanied with sophisticated
RAD logic. It can sound convincing if the matters seem urgent.
In order to give a reasonable fixed fee quote, you either have to:
1. Be confident that you know of all the requirements before you quote,
or;
2. Have the negotiating skill/prerogative to interpret new requirements
in /your/ favour.
Not an easy job. I must admit.
Good luck.
ps.
Don't you just love it when they ask you to reduce the amounts on the
quotes by reducing features ... and then later comment on the quality of
the work /because/ it lacked those same features? <g>
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe Hendricks
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Petros Amiridis wrote:
| Quote: | In that case would you consider
it correct to estimate the number of
hours the first version is going
to take, multiply that to the hourly
rate and present this as the offer?
|
Has this customer ever commissioned
development work before ? If not, you
run the risk of losing much money via feature creep and
misunderstandings.
| Quote: | Or is it acceptable to say that
it is going to take me 3 months and my
hourly rate is X but I am going to be
paid by the actual number of
hours not but the estimated?
|
I'd suggest an incremental approach, where you
estimate only what it takes to get to something
UI they can test, for each stage. Split it into small, visible,
user-testable stages and explain that the total project
estimate needs to wait until you both have experience
working together on the first few stages. If you want
to guarantee something, offer to stand by each incremental
step estimate, not some overall estimate for the entire project.
| Quote: | What about a free period after the
first release? Is this good to have?
|
In my experience, what the customer wants is someone they
can trust and someone who listens to what they want. Concentrate
on those benefits and you'll get them as a longterm customer.
If you prefer a mixed approach,
look at Kyle Coordes' excellent article at:
http://kylecordes.com/story-182-shared-risk-pricing.html
--
JoeH
[ write a letter, save a life - http://www.amnesty.org ]
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lauchlan M
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
| Quote: | I am about to start my first independent contract for a custom
application. I have one problem. Although I have estimated the cost of
developing the first release,
|
Don't do any estimation for the project as a whole. Use an agile methodology
like Scrum or XP, and break the project into milestones that can each be
delivered in reasonable timeframes, and keep in mind you can refactor after
any milestone.
Tell your customer that this initial milestone will be a useful reference
point for further estimates, and give him a first (bare bones) deliverable
in a relatively quick timeframe that they can give feedback on Tell him that
your methodology gives him/her the chance to assess and give feedback into
the project, and for you to respond rapidly to change requests, as they gain
experience with the deliverables and get feedback from users. Tell him that
otherwise, every change request will require a renegotiation of the
contract.
Then, tell your customer that you have estimated the first milestone will
take X time and cost Y$, and that any other estimate for the whole project
is essentially like pulling a figure from thin air, which is not good for
either of you, as your estimate may be unrealistic placing stresses on both
him and you.
Finally, take the project on a time and material basis (ie charge a given
hourly rate), with the estimate for the time/cost of completing the first
milestone. Tell your customer it's a partnership, and this arrangement lets
you both do the best thing for each other. Promise you'll get an initial
deliverable with him in a reasonable time frame (this should be the bare
minimum to provide basic functionality and prove the concept) and deliver on
it. Then, on to the next iteration.
Then, any maintenance work etc you do on it - do it on the same basis.
HTH
Lauchlan M
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric Schreiber
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Petros Amiridis wrote:
| Quote: | I am about to start my first independent contract for a custom
application. I have one problem. Although I have estimated the cost of
developing the first release, I don't know how to go about offering
support after the first version is out. The application is custom and
will only probably be installed in one customer.
|
It's a good question, but there isn't a really easy, absolutley right
answer. Much depends on the application, your availability, and most
importantly, the customer.
In my own business, I generally provide support (and fixes) free for 30
days after delivery. Beyond that, I apply my usual hourly charge unless
the issue is trivial - most issues my customers encounter require no
more than a couple minutes to answer, so the goodwill is worth more
than an invoice would be.
In my day job, we sell annual support contracts (complex application,
complex support issues). The customers that don't have the contract pay
on a per-incident basis for support.
| Quote: | 1) Offer an annual service contract of prepaid hours (example 100
hours * amount per hour)
|
This one may well work to your advantage, especially if you end up
providing only 50 hours of support. Essentially free money. You can
make this option more attractive by giving it a lower per-hour rate.
| Quote: | 2) Offer no service contract and bill by the hour whenever I am
needed.
|
This is my personal preference, though as I noted above I tend to give
away small amounts of support from time to time for free. If you have a
handful of tiny incidents on a bill, the customer may feel like you're
"nickel-and-diming" them.
| Quote: | According to your experience, what are common/best ways for providing
support to customers that have a custom application made by you?
|
The important thing perhaps isn't the actual plan you devise, but
rather making sure that the terms of the support plan are clearly laid
out in writing, and agreed to by both sides. Most customers understand
that support isn't free, but having clear, well-defined terms can help
alleviate a lot of problems before they occur.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric Schreiber
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Joe Hendricks wrote:
| Quote: | I suggest everything based on hourly billing, including
development, bug-fixing, suppport, training, etc.
|
If you've got a client who is willing to go with open-ended costs, this
will work. A lot of customers want a firm quote for development,
however, and will not be amused by being asked to pay for bug fixes on
a new program.
Oliver is right about long-term issues, though. Twelve months down the
road is too late to be bringing a bug to my attention and expect a free
fix.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Petros Amiridis
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Thank you all for helping me with your suggestions.
There is another dimension in freelancing which bothers me. How do you
take care of the copyright of the final product?
Is there a default case such as: customer always has some percentage of
rights over the finished product.
Or is it negotiable?
What are the different cases I might encounter? For example, Customer
wants to buy the source code or Customer wants to be able to sell it
herself.
I think the issues here are:
* Who is going to keep the rights of the application (resale etc.)
* Who is going to keep the source code
* Can you think of anything else I can put in this list?
I can imagine that anything other than keeping the copyright myself,
would increase (astronomically?) the price. Is this correct?
Should I hire a lawyer in order to prepare a legal agreement that
mentions all the points above?
Remember this is my first contract and I don't know how formal I should
be. Should I have everything in writing or should I base some things on
good will?
Thanx again. I know I am not going to learn everything by asking
questions and I am sure that I am going to make mistakes, but hopefully
I will be able to find the best approach and solve the issues that
bother me right now.
--
Petros
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe Hendricks
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
Petros Amiridis wrote:
| Quote: | * Who is going to keep the rights of the application (resale etc.)
* Who is going to keep the source code
|
this is based on country laws I think - in USA I make that clear in
agreement/contract that I own code and resale rights...
| Quote: | Remember this is my first contract and I don't know how formal I should
be. Should I have everything in writing or should I base some things on
good will?
|
Everything in writing - even if only a 'formal' email...
| Quote: | I will be able to find the best approach and solve the issues that
bother me right now.
|
freelancing is wonderful - have done it for 11 yrs now and
despite many of my mistakes, highly recommend it !
one important suggestion: ALWAYS keep some hours for selling/advertising
for new clients.
--
JoeH
[ write a letter, save a life - http://www.amnesty.org ]
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Oliver Townshend
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
| Quote: | 1) 2-3 months for developing the application lets say it costs $10000
(I live in Greece and your millage may vary)
2) Offer 3 months of free support (bug fixes, training etc.)
3) After 3 months, everything is billable, by the hour?
|
Yes, but I only do it when I'm confident about the specification, the
program and the ease of doing the support, and I build the cost of doing it
into the quote.
Oliver Townshend
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric W. Carman
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
"Petros Amiridis" <amiridis (AT) logismos (DOT) gr> wrote
| Quote: |
There is another dimension in freelancing which bothers me. How do you
take care of the copyright of the final product?
Is there a default case such as: customer always has some percentage of
rights over the finished product.
Or is it negotiable?
|
Everything is negotiable...<g>
(Assuming US) The words you need to look for in your contract are "work made
for hire". This indicates that you are working on behalf of your client and
all source, etc. belongs to them. They hold the copyright, trademarks, etc.
in this arrangement. If this is acceptable to you and you feel that you
will be compensated appropriately for your work on their behalf, then no
problem. I work this way for one of my clients. However, if you see this
phrase on any "standard contract" they ask you to sign, be advised, this is
the intent.
If they insist on owning the source, and if you want to be able to resell
the software to other clients, then you can perhaps make a joint marketing
agreement with your client. You both would share in the proceeds from the
license and you could provide the support for the application (or some other
arrangement). This would tend to get a little complicated. Use at your own
risk. <g>
Otherwise, you could own the software outright. This is all subject to
negotiation with your client. They may prefer this option because you have
potential revenue from the software and would therefore be able to offer
your services at a lower rate than option 1 above.
You are correct to get this part straight in the beginning.
| Quote: | Should I hire a lawyer in order to prepare a legal agreement that
mentions all the points above?
|
While I don't think you need to run to a lawyer for every little thing, this
might be a good time to invest in one. Your first contract can act as a
template for future ones - especially if it is well prepared.
The biggest thing you want to protect yourself from is the inevitable
misunderstanding. Everyone enters into these relationships with
pre-conceived notions and invariably assumes that the other party is
thinking the same thing. Rarely is this the case and a pissed off customer
can needlessly complicate your life more than you care to imagine.
There are a number of contract templates you can find on the web (also check
your local library - I found a bunch of good stuff there - and perhaps the
SBA - again assuming the US). After reviewing these, you will get a good
idea of the areas that you may not understand fully and may need further
counselling. Important parts to look for in the templates are the areas
that define what services you will provide, what timelines and milestones
(if any) to which you need to comply, remuneration (the good stuff - what
and how you get paid), non disclosure sections, and any penalties for missed
deadlines, etc. There are other areas of course and you will specifically
want to look for disposition of copyright examples so you can see a few
options.
Also, your client may already have a contract they want you to use. You
will want to review it and make changes, to be sure. Again, everything is
negotiable.
Finally, keep in mind the cost of preparing the contract when you are
negotiating your fees. It wouldn't be outside of the realm of possibility
for the legal fees to eat up a good deal of your margin, so do some homework
before you approach a lawyer.
| Quote: |
Remember this is my first contract and I don't know how formal I should
be. Should I have everything in writing or should I base some things on
good will?
|
Good will is something you can work on once you've been contracted.
Remember, these guys aren't going to be your best friends in the world - at
least not at first. When they start inviting you on their boat for the
weekend, then maybe... <g> Otherwise, you can build goodwill by performing
to expectations (or above), being courteous and respectful, integrating
within their environment without causing IT much grief and bring donuts
occassionally. <g> You can also "throw in" a few hours during the support
phase for those quick and dirty problems and questions.
Well, probably not a lot of help, but take from it what you will.
Best Regards,
Eric
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lauchlan M
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: New freelancer |
|
|
| Quote: | freelancing is wonderful - have done it for 11 yrs now and
despite many of my mistakes, highly recommend it !
one important suggestion: ALWAYS keep some hours for selling/advertising
for new clients.
|
What are your strategies for that?
Lauchlan M
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
