BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Now is your chance to vent... Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message David Dean Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Now is your chance to vent... Those of you who haven't upgraded might want to read Nick Hodges' last blog post entitled "Why you aren't upgrading?": <http://blogs.borland.com/NickHodges/archive/2006/10/04/27823.aspx> -- -David Quis custodiet custodes ipsos? Back to top Sig Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... David Dean wrote: Quote: Those of you who haven't upgraded might want to read Nick Hodges' last blog post entitled "Why you aren't upgrading?": http://blogs.borland.com/NickHodges/archive/2006/10/04/27823.aspx Nick is Delphi and C# product manager I can not see how it applies to C++ programmers. Whining about broken C++ compiler has nothing to do with Delphi. Everyday there are a lot of posts on Delphi newsgroups from DTG guys and looks like they are listening to their customers now. Where's the love for C++? Back to top David Dean Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:46 am    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... In article <45245108$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, Sig <ss (AT) h (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Nick is Delphi and C# product manager I can not see how it applies to C++ programmers. Whining about broken C++ compiler has nothing to do with Delphi. Everyday there are a lot of posts on Delphi newsgroups from DTG guys and looks like they are listening to their customers now. Where's the love for C++? The C++ product manager position is empty. Nick is picking up some of the slack until it is filled. The C++ customer base *is* important, and our needs should be made clear. If we ignore them when they ask for our input, then who can blame them for ignoring us in return? -- -David Quis custodiet custodes ipsos? Back to top David Erbas-White Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... David Dean wrote: Quote: In article <45245108$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, Sig <ss (AT) h (DOT) com> wrote: Nick is Delphi and C# product manager I can not see how it applies to C++ programmers. Whining about broken C++ compiler has nothing to do with Delphi. Everyday there are a lot of posts on Delphi newsgroups from DTG guys and looks like they are listening to their customers now. Where's the love for C++? The C++ product manager position is empty. Nick is picking up some of the slack until it is filled. The C++ customer base *is* important, and our needs should be made clear. If we ignore them when they ask for our input, then who can blame them for ignoring us in return? This is absolutely the most convoluted logic I've seen yet. Borland has not made it enough of a priority to either hire, or lacking a qualified candidate, to designate one of their current managers to spend a specified percentage of their time on C++ products, and it's the CUSTOMERS fault??? This is insanity. As I've stated, BCB is the red-haired bastard stepchild for Borland (DevCo), and it's not getting better. I'm kind of laughing, though, as it seems that many of the complaints by the Delphi folks are similar to those of us here in C++ land. Granted, they don't have compiler issues we have, but they have similar complaints about lack of help/documentation, third-party tools support, problems with the IDE, etc. I've come to the conclusion that C++ just isn't going to be a priority with Borland (DevCo), and have even been toying with the idea of converting some of my C++ programs to Delphi -- but that doesn't solve the lack of support, the uncertainty in Borland's (Devco's) future, and the very bad taste left in my mouth over the past several years (and I started with Borland in the Turbo Pascal days). There's been talk, talk, talk about quality, but then so much has moved BACKWARDS, that it just seems as though one is running to stand in place. I don't see the understanding by Borland (DevCo) of just how angry their customer base is with them -- it's always explanations, rationalizations, excuses, etc. It's "just trust us on this next release, guys, we really understand the need for quality 'now'". I am told that Borland is very popular overseas, but is losing ground here in the US. Given outsourcing, perhaps that could even mean their user base is growing (<G>), but they've certainly learned how to alienate their customers. And note, by the way, that I haven't even MENTIONED the horrific marketing department at Borland (DevCo). I've come to the conclusion that there can't possibly be one -- so why comment on it... David Erbas-White Back to top Roddy Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... "David Dean" <ozchzhq02 (AT) sneakemail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:ozchzhq02-85F444.20460104102006 (AT) frylock (DOT) local... Quote: In article <45245108$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, Sig <ss (AT) h (DOT) com> wrote: If we ignore them when they ask for our input, then who can blame them for ignoring us in return? Agreed, but unfortunately Nick's question explicitly excludes C++:- "Here is post for those of you still using Version 7 and earlier of Delphi" - Roddy Back to top Alex Bakaev [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... David Erbas-White wrote: Quote: Borland has not made it enough of a priority to either hire, or lacking a qualified candidate, to designate one of their current managers to Why don't you apply? ..a Back to top mr_organic Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... David Dean <ozchzhq02 (AT) sneakemail (DOT) com> wrote in news:ozchzhq02-85F444.20460104102006 (AT) frylock (DOT) local: Quote: SNIP The C++ product manager position is empty. Nick is picking up some of the slack until it is filled. The C++ customer base *is* important, and our needs should be made clear. If we ignore them when they ask for our input, then who can blame them for ignoring us in return? Frankly, Borland's "re-commitment" to C++ with BDS2006 always seemed like rather a half-baked sop to their C++ base than any real strategic move. BDS 2006 actually brought very little to the table for C++Builder users (apart from a welcome parity with Delphi's VCL), and actually regressed in several areas. The whole C++ personality has a half-baked feel to it; the whole IDE experience seems to be "if you look and act like Delphi, I will graciously *treat* you like Delphi". There's very little sense that the developers really grasp how C++ developers work, or have a deep understanding of the C++ idiom. But really, this is an old, old gripe of mine, going all the way back to when Borland ditched the OWL and "Pascal-ized" C++ so it could use the VCL. I thought that was a bad decision not so much because the VCL was a bad library (it's not, by any means), but it forced compromises on the compiler, toolchain, and IDE; and it meant that Borland focused their attention on Pascal and the VCL to the detriment of their C++ toolchain. So that leaves us with an aging ever-more-incompliant compiler and linker, out-of-date Win32 headers, lousy COM/ATL support, and an IDE that barely deigns to admit that a specific C++ idiom exists, much less helps the programmer to automate redundant tasks. mr_organic Back to top Alex Bakaev [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... mr_organic wrote: Quote: So that leaves us with an aging ever-more-incompliant compiler and linker, out-of-date Win32 headers, lousy COM/ATL support, and an IDE that What Win32 headers do you find are out of date? What are you missing in the ATL supplied with BCB. I heard that MS wouldn't renew the ATL license, to Borland is stuck there. Back to top mr_organic Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... "Alex Bakaev [TeamB]" <zxtt (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote in news:4525347f$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: Quote: mr_organic wrote: So that leaves us with an aging ever-more-incompliant compiler and linker, out-of-date Win32 headers, lousy COM/ATL support, and an IDE that What Win32 headers do you find are out of date? What are you missing in the ATL supplied with BCB. I heard that MS wouldn't renew the ATL license, to Borland is stuck there. I've run into some specific problems in deploying a RemoteDataModule DLL into an MTS/COM+ container on a Windows XP server (get lots of "Parameter is incorrect" problems). I'm told this is due to a problem in Borland's incomplete support for the newer ATL/COM+ API, but no one seems to know a solution (or be all that interested in finding one). I've also run into problems with name clashes between Borland's database classes and Microsoft's ADO/OLEDB classes (specifically in the ITransaction definition IIRC). I've also run into some issues with newer Win32 filesystem and security APIs. As far as Borland not being able to license the newer COM/ATL stuff: if they can't do that, then they probably ought to get out of the C++ Windows development business altogether. It would put some pretty severe restrictions on what you'd be able to do with Borland C++, especially on the server-side. (And I'm not even getting into the lousy IDE *support* for writing COM/ATL stuff.) Borland/DevCo is going to have to decide if they want to be a serious C++ contender or not. Simply providing a "C++ flavor" for Delphi GUI stuff isn't going to cut it any more. mr_organic Back to top Jonathan Benedicto Guest Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... mr_organic wrote: Quote: out-of-date Win32 headers If you get the MS Platform SDK, you'll get the very latest headers, and they generally work fine in BCB. Some of them will need a few tweaks, but it isn't impossible. Jonathan Back to top vavan Guest Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 09:36:16 -0700, "Alex Bakaev [TeamB]" <zxtt (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote: Quote: What Win32 headers do you find are out of date? What are you missing in the ATL supplied with BCB. I heard that MS wouldn't renew the ATL license, to Borland is stuck there. I'm very much agree with mr_organic on ATL issue. I asked borland here several times whether they plan to ship something more up-to-date than outdated and buggy ATL which is still the same reduced one as it was with bcb5. there are lots of useful helper classes in later ATL releases. one good example I had when I wanted to implement Win performance counter in my bcb app. with ATL it's just a matter of using couple of ATL classes and there you go, and so on of course if ms really wouldn't renew license then there's not much they can do :( -- Vladimir Ulchenko aka vavan Back to top geikelite Guest Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... "Jonathan Benedicto" <invalid (AT) nobody (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4525381a$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: mr_organic wrote: out-of-date Win32 headers If you get the MS Platform SDK, you'll get the very latest headers, and they generally work fine in BCB. Some of them will need a few tweaks, but it isn't impossible. And maybe kiklop has done the tweaking already. I don't know, but check out bccsdk, maybe it has what you need. http://sourceforge.net/projects/bccsdk/ Back to top Daniel James Guest Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... In article <46ubi29cnibt5tq9ud7kjb6fderjchhc4k (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>, Vavan wrote: Quote: of course if ms really wouldn't renew license then there's not much they can do If that's the case they can sue Microsoft for anti-competetive practices. MS own the OS, and it would be indefensible -- and really bad publicity -- for them to use that advantage to lock developers into their own compiler products. I suspect, though, that MS just wanted some money for the licence and Borland wouldn't pay it. Whether the fee required was reasonable I couldn't possibly conjecture ... but it's a good 'excuse' for Borland, who seem to want not to spend any time or money on C++ tools. Cheers, Daniel. Back to top Matt Jacobs Guest Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... "mr_organic" <mr_organic (AT) yourmamashouse (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: As far as Borland not being able to license the newer COM/ATL stuff: if they can't do that, then they probably ought to get out of the C++ Windows development business altogether. It would put some pretty severe restrictions on what you'd be able to do with Borland C++, especially on the server-side. (And I'm not even getting into the lousy IDE *support* for writing COM/ATL stuff.) Why torture yourself? I use MSVS for all my COM work. I gave up on C++ Builder 8 years ago. The only thing I use C++ Builder for these days is for rich clients and GUI front ends to databases. That's all it was meant to do to begin with. Quote: Borland/DevCo is going to have to decide if they want to be a serious C++ contender or not. They already made that decision and the answer was no. Back to top Darko Miletic Guest Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Now is your chance to vent... geikelite wrote: Quote: And maybe kiklop has done the tweaking already. I don't know, but check out bccsdk, maybe it has what you need. http://sourceforge.net/projects/bccsdk/ Yesterday I announced new release of bccSDK that has included ATL 3.0 and WTL 8.0. Now I would really like that people get this release and try it out because I'm sure there are issues still to polish regarding ATL. I did manage to compile all samples from WTL but that is far from enough to do real testing so any help is appreciated. 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