BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 17, 18, 19  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Kevin Berry Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Does anyone here think that new developers who see the original name of our favourite language ("Object Pascal") get put off by that? I'm thinking of the following categories of people: * Those who've used Pascal, but never Delphi. * Those who've been educated in Java, C, C++, or C#. Do you think anyone of these categories of people who sees "Object Pascal" is put off by that? Do they look at it and think: "I'm not touching that, it is Pascal, that's almost as bad as using Object Cobol... nah... I'll give it a miss?" or "Pascal, hasn't that been around for eons?" or "Pascal, isn't that a teaching language?" I think Borland renamed Object Pascal to Delphi for good reason. They assumed that the name Pascal was perceived as negative for marketing. Or at least that was part of the motivation. Part of it was ownership of the language I guess... I've never seen that reasons published anywhere. Now, the question is: Was that the wrong move? Personally, I've seen that people who've seen what Delphi is have been very impressed. Most developers wouldn't mind switching to Delphi once they realize what it is. They just get a negative impression when they see that it is Object Pascal (IMO, the "Object" in it isn't enough to change the negative perception). Is it perhaps better to educate people that Pascal has changed and that Object Pascal is _WAY_ different? Is it therefore a good thing to not pretend that Delphi isn't Object Pascal? So, a little survey question... Who thinks that: (1) We should be trying to "convert the masses" by changing the perception of "Object Pascal"? After all, people don't really see the "Pascal" association as such a negative so it isn't that much effort... They'll change their minds eventually. (2) We shouldn't fight the tide- rather avoid using "Pascal" and use Delphi as the name of the language? Pascal was a teaching language etc. Delphi is a much cooler and more modern language name, like Java etc. (3) Other I'd appreciate some feedback from people who have been in one of the two categories that I named above that had no exposure to Delphi initially. So when answering this question also include that bit of info. Cheers, Kevin. Back to top Joe Bain Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question The main thing I get is people who think Pascal is just for learning. Also I commonly get people who say 'Delphi, Do people still use that?'. I think we need good marketing to fix both the problems. -------------- Joe Bain www.iegsoftware.com Back to top Kevin Berry Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Kevin Berry wrote: Quote: So, a little survey question... I guess I should answer the survey question myself. The truth is that I'm not sure what the correct approach is marketing-wise. Quote: Who thinks that: (1) We should be trying to "convert the masses" by changing the perception of "Object Pascal"? After all, people don't really see the "Pascal" association as such a negative so it isn't that much effort... They'll change their minds eventually. I'm 45% in this camp. Quote: (2) We shouldn't fight the tide- rather avoid using "Pascal" and use Delphi as the name of the language? Pascal was a teaching language etc. Delphi is a much cooler and more modern language name, like Java etc. I'm still 55% in this camp. Quote: (3) Other i.e. I fit in this "Other" category. :-) Quote: I'd appreciate some feedback from people who have been in one of the two categories that I named above that had no exposure to Delphi initially. So when answering this question also include that bit of info. The first hobby computer I owned as a kid was a ZX81- I learned Basic, then assembly language (Z80), then an Apple II (Applesoft, 6502), then an IBM compatible PC (GW-BASIC for all of a day and then I found Turbo Pascal on the computer and never turned back once I looked at the included demo samples! I also enjoyed the easy of embedding asm code using Turbo Pascal). I never did have the perception that Pascal was a learning language because I had already seen what Turbo Pascal could do before I started learning it at university. At university I was exposed to something called "Golden Pascal" on the mainframe as well as Turbo Pascal on the PCs. Golden Pascal made me shudder- the experience made me realize that some people may think that Pascal was really bad. For that matter, my earlier experience with Pascal on the Apple II was no better (I ran into that with my Apple II and didn't use it for too long)- I used a variety of Pascal that used a p-code interpreter and was pretty sluggish compared to the TASC Basic compiler that I had also used. In fact, on the Apple the TASC compiler was pretty darn powerful- I was able to write games that performed quite well. The Pascal compiler wasn't general purpose enough to be able to write games. Obviously, things changed quite a bit when I started using Turbo Pascal and the rest is history.... :-) Cheers, Kevin. Back to top Kevin Berry Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Joe Bain wrote: Quote: The main thing I get is people who think Pascal is just for learning. I haven't heard this one recently, but... Quote: Also I commonly get people who say 'Delphi, Do people still use that?'. Yip, this one I've heard. :-( Quote: I think we need good marketing to fix both the problems. True! Cheers, Kevin. Back to top Steve Heights Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Quote: The main thing I get is people who think Pascal is just for learning. Yep. Heard that (among other occasions) on the first day of a C-course here at university. When the professor asked what other languages people had programmed in and I answered "Pascal/Delphi", he basically said "Yeah, Pascal. That's a nice language to use in high school. Here at university you will learn a real language: C." (don't remember his exact words, but that's the gist of it). Turned out to be a funny course, though, esp. when he introduced strings with malloc() and all theses other nasty things you have to do in C. And I just had to laugh at him, for strings is one of the things where my teaching-language Pascal is really miles ahead of C :) Steve Back to top Joe Bain Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Steve Heights wrote: Quote: Yep. Heard that (among other occasions) on the first day of a C-course here at university. When the professor asked what other languages people had programmed in and I answered "Pascal/Delphi", he basically said "Yeah, Pascal. That's a nice language to use in high school. Here at university you will learn a real language: C." (don't remember his exact words, but that's the gist of it). Turned out to be a funny course, though, esp. when he introduced strings with malloc() and all theses other nasty things you have to do in C. And I just had to laugh at him, for strings is one of the things where my teaching-language Pascal is really miles ahead of C :) Steve I mentioned Delphi in a System Analysis and Design class and the teacher said "Delphi that's like Access right?". I could not believe it. He made the class choose VB for the GUI and C dlls for the business rules. There where 4 teams of 6 people and no team got there part done. About 2 weeks until the end of the class I realized that the project would not be finished. I wrote the entire thing using Delphi for the GUI and Delphi DLLs for the BR in about 20 working hours. On the last day I went in his office to give him the binaries to see what he though of Delphi and he just blew me off and never even looked at it. He ended up giving everyone an A in the class if they did anything because he said that the project he choose was to large to implement with 24 people and 3 months. -------------- Joe Bain www.iegsoftware.com Back to top a Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Kevin, Quote: I think Borland renamed Object Pascal to Delphi for good reason. They didn't. Object Pascal is the language. Delphi is the development environment. They used Object Pascal since 1980s in order to differentiate it from normal Pascal which didn't progress. If someone says they developed something in C++, that isn't too helpful. Of course the next question has to be which environment? Microsoft C++ or Borland C++ Builder. Why? Because the two really aren't compatible with each other beyond the basic syntax-level. Quote: They assumed that the name Pascal was perceived as negative for marketing. Or at least that was part of the motivation. Part of it was ownership of the language I guess... I've never seen that reasons published anywhere. No. The change for the Pascal to Object Pascal was done in the DOS days to reflect that the language was something beyond Pascal. Niklaus Wirth moved on to Module-2 and Oberon. The fundamental addition of objects (plus other goodies) make the two languages diverge past the point of being compatible. I say Delphi, because it's the environment which really determines what the final product is. It's like saying that something is written in Basic. You you mean Visual Basic 3, VB 6, ASP, ASP.NET, etc. It's really the environment which tells me what I need to know -- compiled vs. interpreted, Windows vs. DOS, Win32 vs. .NET, web vs. desktop, etc., etc. Thanks, Brett Back to top Joe Bain Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Joe Bain wrote: Quote: I mentioned Delphi in a System Analysis and Design class and the teacher said "Delphi that's like Access right?". I could not believe it. He made the class choose VB for the GUI and C dlls for the business rules. There where 4 teams of 6 people and no team got there part done. About 2 weeks until the end of the class I realized that the project would not be finished. I wrote the entire thing using Delphi for the GUI and Delphi DLLs for the BR in about 20 working hours. On the last day I went in his office to give him the binaries to see what he though of Delphi and he just blew me off and never even looked at it. He ended up giving everyone an A in the class if they did anything because he said that the project he choose was to large to implement with 24 people and 3 months. To be fair in the comparision of time it took for Delphi vs VB/C. The class did the whole SAD lifecycle and one team was 'Management'. I just did the application. -------------- Joe Bain www.iegsoftware.com Back to top Lee Grissom Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question a wrote: Quote: Object Pascal is the language. Delphi is the development environment. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/borland.public.delphi.non-technical/browse_frm/thread/47ed90ef7145dc34/b909d25d19071ac4?q=Delphi+Language+group:borland.public.delphi.non-technical+author:John+author:Kaster&rnum=9&hl=en#b909d25d19071ac4 or http://tinyurl.com/9lwpl -- Lee Back to top Rick Carter Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Kevin Berry wrote: Quote: I guess I should answer the survey question myself. The truth is that I'm not sure what the correct approach is marketing-wise. Same here. Even though we can all recall what we see as blunders in Borland's marketing, past and present, I'm not convinced we're the group with the better ideas. Pascal has never had a negative stigma for me. Then again, I think that programming is programming, and it may be just as legitimate for getting the job done to write a batch file, use an application's programming language like Paradox for Windows' ObjectPAL or MS Office's VBA, or whatever. I use Delphi the most these days, but it's not because I'm a language bigot. It's because I'm an arch-pragmatist, and I use whatever gets the job done efficiently. I also think it causes some confusion to talk about "Delphi the language" as available in the Delphi IDE and the Kylix IDE, and Borland's reluctance to talk about "Object Pascal" seems to me to be a denial of its heritage. But, that's just me. Borland has to decide what's the best way of attracting the masses to the product. Rick Carter [email]carterrk (AT) despammed (DOT) com[/email] Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group --- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com Back to top somebody Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question "Kevin Berry" <kevin (AT) berry_REM0VETH1S_ware (DOT) com> wrote Quote: So, a little survey question... Who thinks that: (1) We should be trying to "convert the masses" by changing the perception of "Object Pascal"? After all, people don't really see the "Pascal" association as such a negative so it isn't that much effort... They'll change their minds eventually. (2) We shouldn't fight the tide- rather avoid using "Pascal" and use Delphi as the name of the language? Pascal was a teaching language etc. Delphi is a much cooler and more modern language name, like Java etc. (3) Other (3) Leave such silliness to Borland marketing guys and get over the "my language needs to dominate the world" complex. The way Borland is going, I would be more worried about *if* there will be a usable Delphi in the future, not where exactly it will be on the rating charts. Back to top Nick Hodges [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question somebody wrote: Quote: (3) Leave such silliness to Borland marketing guys and get over the "my language needs to dominate the world" complex. The way Borland is going, I would be more worried about if there will be a usable Delphi in the future, not where exactly it will be on the rating charts. I agree. I don't need Delphi to dominate, though it sure would be nice. A good, solid minority position in the marketplace is fine with me. -- Nick Hodges -- TeamB Lemanix Corporation -- http://www.lemanix.com Read my Blog -- http://www.lemanix.com/nick Back to top Martin Waldenburg Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Steve Heights wrote: Quote: When the professor asked what other languages people had programmed in and I answered "Pascal/Delphi", he basically said "Yeah, Pascal. That's a nice language to use in high school. Here at university you will learn a real language: C." to be a moron often seems to be a requirement to become a professor. Martin Back to top DS Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Nick Hodges [TeamB] wrote: Quote: I agree. I don't need Delphi to dominate, though it sure would be nice. A good, solid minority position in the marketplace is fine with me. Yes. Delphi should be a synonim for quality. Nice thing about Delphi is that since TP days it has this *great* community of developers. Countless times I've searched for a solution and I've always found it - in early days on BBSes, now internet makes it just easier. Delphi community is *such* big asset. LP, Dejan Back to top Brion L. Webster Guest Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Object Pascal Stigma, Useless Survey Question Kevin Berry wrote: Quote: (1) We should be trying to "convert the masses" by changing the perception of "Object Pascal"? After all, people don't really see the "Pascal" association as such a negative so it isn't that much effort... They'll change their minds eventually. Given the other "languages" out there - Java, C#, C++, Visual Basic, Perl, PHP, Python - that a newbie is going to encounter, "Object Pascal" sounds kind of bulky, to me. Quote: (2) We shouldn't fight the tide- rather avoid using "Pascal" and use Delphi as the name of the language? Pascal was a teaching language etc. Delphi is a much cooler and more modern language name, like Java etc. Delphi the language is, IMO, nearly useless without the VCL, without the compiler, without the IDE. If you really want to teach the language, there are other IDE's that you can find, sort of, but again, IMO, the only really useful set out there now is Borland's Delphi package, the whole package. There is no separation of the language from everything else in that context. Quote: (3) Other I would market the heck out of Delphi, and leave the language questions out of it. If someone did ask "what language does Delphi use", well now Delphi/BDS supports C#, Delphi Pascal, VB, Delphi for the Microsoft .NET Framework (weren't we told we're not allowed to abbreviate that back in the .NET 1.0 days?), and soon C++. What language does Visual Studio use? Quote: I'd appreciate some feedback from people who have been in one of the two categories that I named above that had no exposure to Delphi initially. So when answering this question also include that bit of info. When I first encountered Delphi, I had been programming in QuickBasic, had done some TRS-80 programming in some ancient version of Basic, and some Logo stuff, I think. It took me a while to get over the "where are the line numbers" mental issue, but I was up and running within a few days. Then I saw Visual Basic 6, and couldn't figure out where the event handlers were accessed via the IDE. I couldn't get oriented to the IDE at all until someone helped me along. In both cases the name and heritage of the languages meant absolutely nothing to me. One was a tool being introduced at work for new development (Delphi), one was the Microsoft offering at the same price (VB 6). I could pick up either one for $99, I thought MS was probably the safer choice, but since I understood the Delphi IDE better and it was being used at work I picked Delphi. I've been here ever since. -Brion Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 17, 18, 19  Next Page 1 of 19   Jump to: Select a forum C++ Builder Newsgroups----------------C++ BuilderC++ Builder (ActiveX)C++ Builder (Announcements)C++ Builder (Command Line Tools)C++ Builder DatabasesC++ Builder Databases (ADO)C++ Builder Databases (Desktop)C++ Builder Databases (InterBase Express)C++ Builder Databases (Multi-Tier)C++ Builder Databases (SQL Servers)C++ Builder (Graphics)C++ Builder (IDE)C++ Builder (Internet)C++ Builder (Internet Socket)C++ Builder (Internet Web)C++ Builder (Jobs)C++ Builder (Language)C++ Builder (Language C++)C++ Builder (Compatibility with MFC)C++ Builder (Native API)C++ Builder (Non-Technical)C++ Builder (Students)C++ Builder (Third Party Tools)C++ Builder (Upgrade)C++ Builder (VCL)C++ Builder (VCL Components Usage)C++ Builder (VCL Components Development)C++ Builder (VCL Usage)C++ Builder (WinAPI)C++ Builder Installation Delphi Newsgroups----------------Delphi (General)Delphi ActiveX Controls UsageDelphi ActiveX Controls DevelopmentDelphi As400Delphi DatabasesDelphi Databases (ADO)Delphi Databases (dbExpress)Delphi Databases (Desktop)Delphi Databases (InterBase Express)Delphi Databases (Multi-Tier)Delphi Databases (SQL Servers)Delphi DeploymentDelphi GraphicsDelphi IDEDelphi InternationalizationDelphi InternetDelphi Internet Isapi-WebBrokerDelphi Internet WebSnapDelphi Internet WinsockDelphi JobsDelphi Language BASMDelphi Language ObjectPascalDelphi Model Driven Architecture (General)Delphi Model Driven Architecture (Third Party)Delphi MultimediaDelphi Native APIDelphi Non-TechnicalDelphi ObjectPascalDelphi OLE AutomationDelphi OO designDelphi OpenToolsAPIDelphi Reporting-ChartingDelphi RTLDelphi StudentsDelphi TeamSourceDelphi Thirdparty ToolsDelphi Thirdparty Tools (General)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (IntraWeb)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (RaveReports)Delphi UpgradeDelphi VCLDelphi VCL ComponentsDelphi VCL Components UsingDelphi VCL Components WritingDelphi WebServices SOAPDelphi WinAPIDelphi XMLDelphi Installationcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misccomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usagecomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writingcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.databasescomp.lang.pascal.delphi.misccomp.sources.delphi JBuilder Newsgroups----------------JBuilderJBuilder AnnouncementsJBuilder Applet IssuesJBuilder As400JBuilder CompilerJBuilder CORBA/RMIJBuilder DatabasesJBuilder DB SwingJBuilder DebuggerJBuilder DeploymentJBuilder DocumentationJBuilder EnterpriseJBuilder HandheldJBuilder IDEJBuilder JavaJBuilder JavaAPIJBuilder Java LanguageJBuilder Java SwingJBuilder Java BeansJBuilder Java Beans UsageJBuilder Java Beans DevelopmentJBuilder JBCLJBuilder JDataStoreJBuilder JobsJBuilder LinuxJBuilder MacintoshJBuilder & MobileSetJBuilder MultiLingual AppsJBuilder Non-TechnicalJBuilder OpenToolsJBuilder Servlets (JSP)JBuilder StudentsJBuilder Team DevelopmentJBuilder Thirdparty ToolsJBuilder UpgradeJBuilder Installation InterBase Newsgroups----------------InterBaseInterBase Bug DiscussionInterBase GeneralInterBase IBConsoleInterBase OpenSourceInterBase ReplicationInterBase SQLInterBase ThirdpartyInterBase Installation Miscellaneous Borland Newsgroups----------------AppCenterAppServerEnteraVisiBroker  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.