BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Will DeWitt Jr. Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. From The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24174) -- "Japanese site Akiba PC Watch reports that the Intel LGA775 model 331, even though it is as yet unannounced, appears to be for sale in stores in Tokyo, selling for around ¥10,000. That page is here. The INQ crib sheet is here." ---------- ¥10,000 works out to USD $91.84 (which is for the Celeron D 331, there's a lower SKU than that, the Celeron D 326, which will likely be cheaper still). For those keeping track at home, the Celeron D processors which include 64-bit support (EM64T) are 326, 331, 336, 341, 346, 351 and 355. They are only available as socket T (775). What does this mean? That, shortly, those crappy systems sold at Wal-Mart for $200-300 will be able to run 64-bit Windows and 64-bit software. It also means that 64-bit processors are, as my subject noted, available from the low end to the high end from both AMD and Intel. Will -- Want native support in Delphi for AMD64/EM64T? Vote here-- http://qc.borland.com/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=7324 Back to top Florian Klaempfl Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. "Will DeWitt Jr." <edge (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) icehouse.net> wrote: Quote: It also means that 64-bit processors are, as my subject noted, available from the low end to the high end from both AMD and Intel. Will -- Want native support in Delphi for AMD64/EM64T? Vote here-- I stumble over this newsgroup because someone pointed me to a thread here and I crossread some threads. I find it very funny how people try to tell Borland do this or that like a 64 bit Delphi or linux support aka Kylix. But get real, the only market where you can make money with development tools is win32. I don't have sales numbers but the download numbers of e.g. the source forget mirror of the compiler not allowed to mention here ;) http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=2174 Ratio Win32 to Linux package downloads: 5:1 Ratio i386/Linux to AMD64/EMT64T linux: 15:1 (no Win64 yet) The picture on the other mirrors doesn't differ. So if you want to make money with a object pascal suite which targets would you choose? Probably only win32, all other targets are irrelevant. I'am quite sure the market analysises of Borland lead to the same conclusion. Back to top Alvaro GP Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Florian Klaempfl wrote: Quote: So if you want to make money with a object pascal suite which targets would you choose? Probably only win32, all other targets are irrelevant. That may change when the cheap machiches that Will mentioned are widely available. Back to top Alvaro GP Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Alvaro GP wrote: Quote: That may change when the cheap (*machiches*) that Will mentioned are widely available. LOL! Machines, not machiches. Back to top Florian Klaempfl Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. "Alvaro GP" <alvarogp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Florian Klaempfl wrote: So if you want to make money with a object pascal suite which targets would you choose? Probably only win32, all other targets are irrelevant. That may change when the cheap machiches that Will mentioned are widely available. 64 bit on these cheap machines makes no sense at least for the next five years. For appliations requiring not more than 2 GB 64 bit has no advantage. On average, 64 bit applications aren't faster than 32 bit applications as you can read e.g. in Dr. Dobbs, the German c't or find out by your own measurements. The reason is simple: modern applications are usually limited by the memory bandwidth i.e. cache and main memory performance. If you switch to 64 bit, the size of addresses/pointers is doubled causing more memory traffic and this eats the advantage of the increased number of registers and other architectural improvements. So for most applications 64 bit has only the disadvantage that it requires porting effort with no real gain. This might have changed in 5 years but for now there is no reason to go to 64 bit for a usual application. Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Software development doesn't happen overnight, just like it wouldn't have been wise to go full 16 bits after 32 bit windows and hardware started picking up steam, it is probably not wise to go full 32 bits when 64 bits are picking up steam. Eric Back to top Florian Klaempfl Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Eric Grange <egrangeNO (AT) SPAMglscene (DOT) org> wrote: Quote: Software development doesn't happen overnight, just like it wouldn't have been wise to go full 16 bits after 32 bit windows and hardware started picking up steam, it is probably not wise to go full 32 bits when 64 bits are picking up steam. Eric 32 bit had advantages against 16 bit for most applications, while this isn't true for 64 bit. And: on 16 bit systems pointers were usually 32 bit (Seg:Ofs) (remember TP and D1 ?) so the amount of data didn't increase when going to 32 bit. Back to top Alvaro GP Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Florian Klaempfl wrote: Quote: So for most applications 64 bit has only the disadvantage that it requires porting effort with no real gain. This might have changed in 5 years but for now there is no reason to go to 64 bit for a usual application. Agreed, but something similar can be said of .NET, and however Borland jumped the .NET boat as if it were the last thing in this world. Back to top Bob Dawson Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. "Alvaro GP" wrote Quote: Agreed, but something similar can be said of .NET, and however Borland jumped the .NET boat as if it were the last thing in this world. Not really. People argued cried and moaned for several years (here and in other venues like BorCon) before Borland finally announced that it would produce a Delphi for .NET. Of course, internally it may have been studying and planning for .NET all along, but that wasn't evident at the time. And the same can be said for 64bit now: the lack of product announcement doesn't at all preclude the existence of the project. bobD Back to top Alisdair Meredith [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Florian Klaempfl wrote: Quote: So for most applications 64 bit has only the disadvantage that it requires porting effort with no real gain. This might have changed in 5 years but for now there is no reason to go to 64 bit for a usual application. I think you're missing a trick here. If we can persuade all our customers to upgrade to 64bit architecture, and stuff their boxes full or RAM, we can forget about memory leaks for a LONG time. You have an application that leaks out of memory on your 2Gb box after 3 days, but require uptime of 90? No problem! Simply install 64Gb of RAM and forget about it! Don't forget to upgrade your minimum spec hardware on the prduct requirements, and ask marketing to sell this as a sign you are at the leading edge, taking advantage of the latest technology! AlisdairM(TeamB) Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Quote: For appliations requiring not more than 2 GB 64 bit has no advantage. - Extra registers CPU registers, SSE2 maths are standard instead of FPU (esp. good for Celeron) - NX bit (good for marketing security) - 64 bit is better than 32 bits marketing You may not think performance doesn't matter much on low end, but there are things to keep in mind: extra power means more stuff can be emulated by the CPU, which means less or cheaper components -> lower costs. Remember when modem risers f.i. were first introduced? These are typical examples of previously complex and expensive components (modems) being replaced with cheapo components + CPU emulation (and the reason why Intel marketing could claim that faster CPUs could make internet faster, and not be sued to death for it). Next components to go with more CPU power will be sound chips (pretty much gone already), DSL, Ethernet and TnL part of integrated graphics (don't forget that with LongHorn, shader support becomes compulsory, and cheapo machines manufacturers would rather avoid having to pack complex pieces of silicon, even fully integrated ones). Quote: On average, 64 bit applications aren't faster than 32 bit applications as you can read e.g. in Dr. Dobbs, the German c't or find out by your own measurements. More recent benchmark with more recent compilers versions can show improvements up to 40%, and are still not considered mature (cf latest comparison on AnandTech f.i.). Not all compiler architectures do benefit however, MS and Intel's f.i. show gains, while GNU's f.i. doesn't (but GNU wasn't anywhere near performance leader in the 32bit world either). Eric Back to top Dennis Landi Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. "Alisdair Meredith [TeamB]" <alisdair.NO.SPAM.PLEASE.meredith (AT) uk (DOT) renaultf1.com> wrote in Quote: I think you're missing a trick here. If we can persuade all our customers to upgrade to 64bit architecture, and stuff their boxes full or RAM, we can forget about memory leaks for a LONG time. Memory Leaks??? What on earth are you talking about? What exactly is your argument? Why wouldn't eliminating memory leaks be the same non-negotiable priority in the future that it is in the present. What on earth has this got to do with 64-bit software? Are you pointing to "bad programmers" as an argument against upgrading your software tool set to 64-bit? -- d --------------------------------------------------- Need to see what's happening? Check out the Delphi Community Blog Aggregator http://delphi.flashblogger.com Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Quote: And: on 16 bit systems pointers were usually 32 bit (Seg:Ofs) (remember TP and D1 ?) so the amount of data didn't increase when going to 32 bit. Practically I don't think pointer size increase will be any kind of short or long term issues, because their memory usage is nowadays dwarfed by the rest of the (multimedia) data that gets manipulated. It doesn't take many digital camera pictures to reach into the dozens of megabytes, not many digital movies to reach into the gigabytes, it doesn't take a high-end printer before you have to contend with billions of printer pixels. These are all things those low-end machines are being used for (as unsuitable for those tasks as you may think they are). I'll take another example: icons. In the old days, monochrome icons would fit in 8 bytes, and satisfy everybody. Nowadays, 32x32 RGBA (4kB) are commonplace, and with the advent of high-res cheapo LCD screens, you actually start to see 128x128 RGBA being used. With LongHorn, odds are we'll get animated and textured meshes as icons (and the megabyte-sized icon will be reached). Another example of the inflation of data: pick an average word document. In the early days of 32 bits, they were thypically below 100kB, 1 MB was considered huge, but nowadays, 5-10 MB documents are all over the place. Similarly, games used to fit in less than a few MB on early 32 bits systems, current blockbusters have (today!) reached the gigabyte of memory usage, +256 MB of vidram please. At that level of memory usage, address space and its fragmentation is an issue whenever you want to allocate large blocks of contiguous memory (like for textures), you'll typically run out of contiguous memory long before you run out of RAM). Compared to the exponential increase in the datasize "everyday" applications have to manipulate, the size increase of pointers is a drop in the ocean IMO, and will be promptly forgotten (as it should be). Eric Back to top Captain Jake Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Eric Grange <egrangeNO (AT) SPAMglscene (DOT) org> wrote in message <42bc04a3 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com> Quote: More recent benchmark with more recent compilers versions can show improvements up to 40%, That simply is not enough to be worth the cost of change or all but the most performance-sensitive applications. This means that only new software has anywhere near a chance of being usefully built in 64-bit and only after all the PC's in a firm have been replaced with new 64-bit ones. 2-5 years. Anyone who releases a general application as 64-bit-only at this point is going to have a lot of unused bandwidth at his download site. -- ***Free Your Mind*** Posted with Reader3000-BETA 0.9.4.862 Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Official: 64-bit now available from low end to high end. Not so far fetched as it sounds Ever increasing CPU powers meant that increasingly CPU/memory inefficient applications (culminating with Java and .Net) were still accepted as good enough. 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