BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  OOP versus Procedural Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi OO design View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message preston Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:28 pm    Post subject: OOP versus Procedural Can someone explain the difference between OOP and Procedural and how it relates to Delphi. Since Delphi creates Forms which are objects any procedure / function is really a method. Yet I've worked on some projects where others have mentioned their procedural rather than OOP. Preston Back to top Jens Gruschel Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: Can someone explain the difference between OOP and Procedural and how it relates to Delphi. Well, OOP is based on objects. Procedural programming is based on precedures / functions ;-) Delphi is based on object pascal. In fact today the language is called Delphi, too. So Delphi is an OOP language. Also read the thread "Evangelizing" started ten days ago (but there were many threads to similar topics in the past). Quote: Since Delphi creates Forms which are objects any procedure / function is really a method. Right. But I think it's dangerous only to talk about forms and the VCL. Delphi is much more. And OOP is much more. Many Delphi beginners do "procedural programming inside of form classes", which results in god classes and the functional decomposition antipattern, and which is a big mistake and not what OOP stands for. Jens -- Jens Gruschel http://www.pegtop.net Back to top Corinna Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural I'm still developing my understanding, but for now, I'd have to say that when you write something as OOP, you focus on designing classes and the interaction of classes. After that you worry about procedures, functions, forms, and components. Most Delphi people seem to do it in reverse: what's the first thing you do when you start a new program or feature? You get a new unit, open the form designer, and place components. *That* isn't OOP. :) When you OOP, the first thing you do is sit down and think. Then you draw a picture with squares and arrows, and think some more. Then you type. At some point later, you go to the form designer... :) Read the various threads here, even if you don't quite understand what people are talking about, and you'll soon start to get it through osmosis and brainwashing. -Corinna "Jens Gruschel" <nospam (AT) thisurldoesnotexist (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Can someone explain the difference between OOP and Procedural and how it relates to Delphi. Well, OOP is based on objects. Procedural programming is based on precedures / functions ;-) Back to top Trevor de Koekkoek Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural "Corinna" <schultz (AT) harlingen (DOT) isd.tenet.edu> wrote Quote: You get a new unit, open the form designer, and place components. *That* isn't OOP. That isn't un-OOP either. OOP is about _how_ you think about developing, not _whether_ you think. Quote: When you OOP, the first thing you do is sit down and think. You can sit down and think first or not in any paradigm. Just because you start coding immediately in the form designer does not necessarily mean you are producing anything less OOP. It might mean that you've done it enough times to know what you're doing. -Trevor Back to top Wayne Niddery [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural preston wrote: Quote: Can someone explain the difference between OOP and Procedural and how it relates to Delphi. Since Delphi creates Forms which are objects any procedure / function is really a method. Yet I've worked on some projects where others have mentioned their procedural rather than OOP. Delphi (and its root, Object Pascal), like C++, is a hybrid language - Object Pascal introduced OOP to the earlier Pascal language (~1988). You are not forced to use *any* object class provided by Delphi, you can do 100% procedural programming if you really want to (you would created windows and controls purely via the Windows API) - but it is certainly not recommended. When you use the designer to create forms and controls, Delphi generates form and control classes for you, so you are using and benefiting from OOP to that extent, but that does not make you an OO programmer. To get the most from OO, one has to think about and design one's own classes - the classes that actually perform the work in your application, not just the IDE-generated classes and events. You will invariably hear this referred to as business classes, or the business domain, and this is where UML and modelling tools come into play. -- Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com) RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html Light is faster than sound, which is why some folks appear bright before they speak. Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: Then you draw a picture with squares and arrows You can often skip this step I rarely do this unless I am developing an idea with other programmers. UML is a nice communications tool, but I don't find it particularly relevant if it's just me working on the code. Cheers, Jim Cooper __________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm __________________________________________ Back to top Jens Gruschel Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: I'm still developing my understanding, but for now, I'd have to say that when you write something as OOP, you focus on designing classes and the interaction of classes. After that you worry about procedures, functions, forms, and components. Most Delphi people seem to do it in reverse: what's the first thing you do when you start a new program or feature? You get a new unit, open the form designer, and place components. *That* isn't OOP. I fully agree, and that's what I tried to say. Don't build your application around your forms. Of course the main form of most Windows applications has some importance. But IMO forms should be used to visualize a model, that's the core of the application. Just what you said: after designing this core, which usually consists of many, many classes, probably separated into several layers, and after finding interfaces and structures for interaction, it's time to create a GUI to visualize your business objects or whatever has to be visualized. It can be done the other way round, too. But there is the danger of functional decomposition (in Delphi it often starts with putting business logic into GUI event handlers), so one has to be extremely careful with this approach. Quote: Well, OOP is based on objects. Procedural programming is based on precedures / functions That wasn't meant too seriously (although there is some truth in it). Answers to my last paragraph probably would be the beginning of a much better discussion. But then again it's my fault. Why do I write such statements? Jens -- Jens Gruschel http://www.pegtop.net Back to top Jens Gruschel Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: You get a new unit, open the form designer, and place components. *That* isn't OOP. :) That isn't un-OOP either. Right, it *is* OOP. And it is RAD. The other question is: is it helpful? I think it isn't. At least not for applications that exceed some size. Quote: You can sit down and think first or not in any paradigm. Again that's true. But experience showed me, that thinking sometimes is helpful. At least I feel better when thinking a bit. Jens -- Jens Gruschel http://www.pegtop.net Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural At 22:36:50, 19.09.2005, Trevor de Koekkoek wrote: Quote: "Corinna" <schultz (AT) harlingen (DOT) isd.tenet.edu> wrote in message news:432f1bc6$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... You get a new unit, open the form designer, and place components. That isn't OOP. :) That isn't un-OOP either. OOP is about how you think about developing, not whether you think. When you OOP, the first thing you do is sit down and think. You can sit down and think first or not in any paradigm. Just because you start coding immediately in the form designer does not necessarily mean you are producing anything less OOP. It might mean that you've done it enough times to know what you're doing. I prefer to make the GUI first, and then slowly write the code behind it. That does not mean I don't separate GUI from logic, I do. But I find it easier to structure my thoughts that way, i.e. beginning from the GUI, instead of the tedious search for necessary structures and classes. I find that when I start implementing, I revise my design many times anyway, so why not start at the (for me) easier side and work top down? -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "The pen is mightier than the sword, and considerably easier to write with." -- Marty Feldman. Back to top Jens Gruschel Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: UML is a nice communications tool, but I don't find it particularly relevant if it's just me working on the code. But then you more or less have an UML like structure in your mind. In my opinion UML is an idea to find a common way to visualize what we (good developers I hope) have in mind. Of course our minds are not the same, and that's a good thing I think. So what you have in mind probably isn't an UML diagram. But UML does visualize OOP in some way, and your mind does visualize OOP, too. If your are a good OOP programmer you probably won't even notice that. You don't think about it, if you've done it a thousand times. You do it. Jens -- Jens Gruschel http://www.pegtop.net Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural At 19:41:22, 19.09.2005, Jens Gruschel wrote: Quote: Can someone explain the difference between OOP and Procedural and how it relates to Delphi. Well, OOP is based on objects. Procedural programming is based on precedures / functions One other way to look at it: OOP sees data as the active item. Data has properties and capabilities in the form of methods and properties, and knows how to interact with other data. Data rulez. Procedural programing sees code as the active item, and data is just something that is processed by it and passed around. Code rulez. IOW, in OOP, data is active, while in procedural programming it is passive. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "The only rules comedy can tolerate are those of taste, and the only limitations those of libel." -- James Thurber (1894-1961) Back to top Jens Gruschel Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: I prefer to make the GUI first, and then slowly write the code behind it. That does not mean I don't separate GUI from logic, I do. In practice I think often a mixture of top down and bottom up is used. You create parts of the GUI, probably without much functional logic behind it. Then maybe you write some low level classes. Later you put things together. It's a nice theory to start bottom up, write test beds for all classes, and build the GUI at last. As long as GUI and logic is separated IMO it's alright (and of course I know you are not the one I have to tell this). Jens -- Jens Gruschel http://www.pegtop.net Back to top Jens Gruschel Guest Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: OOP sees data as the active item. Data has properties and capabilities in the form of methods and properties, and knows how to interact with other data. Data rulez. Procedural programing sees code as the active item, and data is just something that is processed by it and passed around. Code rulez. IOW, in OOP, data is active, while in procedural programming it is passive. That's a very, very good explaination. At least data seems to be active in OOP. And from a design point of view that's how you have to look at it. Jens -- Jens Gruschel http://www.pegtop.net Back to top Wayne Niddery [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Jim Cooper wrote: Quote: You can often skip this step I rarely do this unless I am developing an idea with other programmers. UML is a nice communications tool, but I don't find it particularly relevant if it's just me working on the code. This is an interesting to me. I was late coming to use UML because I dismissed it as just more documentation I have to do, but gradually learned to use it a little for the reason you say - to help me show people ideas on how I propose things to work. At the same time I have often scribbled circles and lines on paper for years while trying to gel ideas in my mind, so I started using a UML tool instead. Now my primary use is precisely for my own benefit, I found it much more effective than paper and pencil for helping me work out my classes and relationships. I really only rarely use it for purposes of documentation or to show clients. -- Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com) RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html "We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." - Robert Wilensky Back to top Grandy Guest Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: OOP versus Procedural Quote: Delphi is based on object pascal. In fact today the language is called Delphi, too. So Delphi is an OOP language. That's strange.... there is no problem to work in Delphi without any classes at all, VCL included. So Delphi is much more then just another OOP language. And i have seen a number of quite big projects written in Delphi, where the first rule was "no classes". 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