BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Matthew Mead Guest Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:29 pm    Post subject: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Last week, I gave a presentation on BCB6 to about 80 students at the college where I teach. I do this about once or twice per year and the response is always "Wow! I want this! It could have saved me months of programming on my last project! ... etc." This is because most of them have only attempted to create Windows programs the "old-fashioned" way, by using (fighting) MFC or the even older-fashioned "one big switch statement" using MSVC 6.0. This year, they are using MS VS.NET 2003 and are wondering if it is as good as BCB6 at creating RAD GUI applications. After the presentation, one student went back to his computer and tried to build a simple GUI program using VS.NET. His conclusion (after a brief session) was that by using WinForms, you get everything that BCB6 has to offer for RAD GUI development. I tried a WinForms application about a year ago and was not impressed. It felt like VB circa 1996. I tried it again last night for a trivial "Hello World" (one button on a form) and was unable to use std::string from the STL. I Googled on some variation of "using the STL with WinForms in VS.NET" and found a link explaining that this was not possible. http://www.gotdotnet.com/community/messageboard/Thread.aspx?id=275252 If this is indeed the case, it's a show-stopper for our students that use the STL for much of their work. So, my question (finally) to others that may have used BCB6 and VS.NET with WinForms is: "What are your feelings about using VS.NET and WinForms as a replacement for BCB6 for developing Win32 desktop GUIs?" I'm not looking to bash MS or necessarily promote Borland, but I would like to hear about things that BCB6 can do that WinForms with VS.NET cannot do and vice-versa in the context of C++ programming. Note that I'm also not worried about the future of BCB6 and the "Letter" that is supposedly coming on December 15. -- Matthew Mead Project JEDI - www.delphi-jedi.org Integrate Java and Delphi - www.pacifier.com/~mmead/jni/delphi "IE is to web browsing as Notepad is to text editing." Back to top Harold Howe [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Quote: This year, they are using MS VS.NET 2003 and are wondering if it is as good as BCB6 at creating RAD GUI applications. .... So, my question (finally) to others that may have used BCB6 and VS.NET with WinForms is: "What are your feelings about using VS.NET and WinForms as a replacement for BCB6 for developing Win32 desktop GUIs?" You didn't mention a programming language. From a RAD standpoint, vs.net + winforms + C# is almost as good as BCB + VCL. However, if you start developing an app with vs.net, you will start to see that the phrase "almost as good as" can be replaced with "takes a backseat to". winforms is just not as polished as the VCL. In a simple hello world app, winforms and BCB seem almost identical in term of RAD. But if you develop a real application, the differences will make themselves apparent. You will notice that you have to write code to accomplish tasks in winforms that didn't require any code in BCB. If you want to use C++ as your language of choice, vs.net 2003 is sort of an ugly duckling. The C++ compiler is good, but writing managed code requires the use of numerous and cryptic language extensions. Learn to love the underscore key. H^2 Back to top Duane Hebert Guest Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps "Harold Howe [TeamB]" <hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com> wrote Quote: You didn't mention a programming language. From a RAD standpoint, vs.net + winforms + C# is almost as good as BCB + VCL. However, if you start developing an app with vs.net, you will start to see that the phrase "almost as good as" can be replaced with "takes a backseat to". winforms is just not as polished as the VCL. Well he asked about STL so I assume he means non managed C++. From my POV, msvc 7.1 is a very good c++ compiler but AFAICS winforms requires managed extensions. Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps "Harold Howe [TeamB]" <hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com> wrote Quote: The C++ compiler is good, but writing managed code requires the use of numerous and cryptic language extensions. Extensions that are no longer relavant, either. The whole Managed C++ Extensions are being done away with in the next C++CLI standard, opting for something more integrated with the C++ language directly instead. At least, that is what I got from what I saw in the presentations at BorCon. Gambit Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Matthew Mead <mmead (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: So, my question (finally) to others that may have used BCB6 and VS.NET with WinForms is: "What are your feelings about using VS.NET and WinForms as a replacement for BCB6 for developing Win32 desktop GUIs?" That's a non starter. VS.NET using WinForms can not produce Win32 app, only .NET ones. So in this case its hands down BCB6 as VS.NET can't do it. Back to top Matthew Mead Guest Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps In article <41a25d1d$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, [email]hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com[/email] says... Quote: You didn't mention a programming language. From a RAD standpoint, vs.net I should have said that I was interested in a C++-only solution. I would prefer no extensions (although even BCB has extensions that only BCB will understand.) Being able to use C++ "as it was meant to be", STL, heavy pointer manipulation, etc. The thing that immediately turned me off from the "WinForms Project" I build last night was that the STL was unavailable. I just can't believe this is the case. I think I read on the web that there is something coming along like STL.NET or something? That doesn't give me a good feeling. Quote: "almost as good as" can be replaced with "takes a backseat to". winforms is just not as polished as the VCL. This was immediately obvious to myself, since I expect a lot from a RAD GUI tool like BCB or Delphi. IMO, the RAD capabilities of the WinForms stuff are weak compared to BCB for non-trivial GUI applications. I think the newbie may have a hard time understanding why BCB's capabilities are a lot further along than WinForms. Quote: If you want to use C++ as your language of choice, vs.net 2003 is sort of an ugly duckling. The C++ compiler is good, but writing managed code requires the use of numerous and cryptic language extensions. Learn to As Remy stated in this thread, it seems that the extensions in VS.NET are no longer relevant. This is another thing that has always irked me about MS: Changing things too often. Whether it was poor design or lack of foresight or what, I don't know, but I don't want to learn something new only to relearn something else shortly thereafter. We need RAD GUI today, with all of the features/functionality of BCB6. If the "new" VS.NET C++ tools are going to be the future, I'd just as soon not bother with today's WinForms and wait for the next iteration of VS.NET., or better yet, the next iteration of BCB :) -- Matthew Mead Project JEDI - www.delphi-jedi.org Integrate Java and Delphi - www.pacifier.com/~mmead/jni/delphi Back to top Harold Howe [TeamB] Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Quote: As Remy stated in this thread, it seems that the extensions in VS.NET are no longer relevant. The extensions in vs.net 2003 are replaced with different extensions in vs.net 2005. Still plenty of extensions. I suppose the old ones will continue to work, but I don't know for sure. H^2 Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps "Matthew Mead" <me (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote Quote: In article <41a25d1d$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, [email]hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com[/email] says... You didn't mention a programming language. From a RAD standpoint, vs.net I should have said that I was interested in a C++-only solution. I would prefer no extensions (although even BCB has extensions that only BCB will understand.) Being able to use C++ "as it was meant to be", STL, heavy pointer manipulation, etc. The thing that immediately turned me off from the "WinForms Project" I build last night was that the STL was unavailable. I just can't believe this is the case. I think I read on the web that there is something coming along like STL.NET or something? That doesn't give me a good feeling. I think you are comparing apples with oranges. E.g. you complained about that you can´t use std::string directly. Since WinForms are completely based on Unicode it would need (non visible) permanent conversion of the short character string and you would surely loose information if you read unicode strings. The second point is that you are comparing native memory (STL) with garbage collected memory (managed / WinForms). Since both are very different it´s clear that there can´t be such a tight integration of C++ as it´s there in BCB. Though it can be done much better than it has be done with managed C++. Herb Sutter has IHMO done a fair good job with C++/CLI and STL.NET. So forget about managed C++. Well, perhaps there´s an even better integration which will be in a new BCB version - but i doubt that it can be done that easy and simple in C++ as it has been done in Delphi. Quote: This was immediately obvious to myself, since I expect a lot from a RAD GUI tool like BCB or Delphi. IMO, the RAD capabilities of the WinForms stuff are weak compared to BCB for non-trivial GUI applications. I think the newbie may have a hard time understanding why BCB's capabilities are a lot further along than WinForms. Huh ? Delphi can do STL ? No - but Delphi can do WinForms too. Have you had a look at it - how easy it´s to convert a VCL application to a VCL.NET one ? If Delphi would have STL support i would favor it over C++ for RAD. And you should compare Delphi with C# not with C++, which by the way the new Delphi compiler can compile and mix without any problems. Quote: As Remy stated in this thread, it seems that the extensions in VS.NET are no longer relevant. This is another thing that has always irked me about MS: Changing things too often. Whether it was poor design or lack Poor design. Hm. What has MS changed so often regarding C++ ? In fact there has been nothing changed that much about the framework (MFC) in the last 10 years. It should have been done more about it, don´t know why - but isn´t native RAD C++ protected by software patents ? Quote: of foresight or what, I don't know, but I don't want to learn something new only to relearn something else shortly thereafter. We need RAD GUI today, with all of the features/functionality of BCB6. If the "new" I don´t need C++ RAD, but what i need is a tight integration of my C++ code into RAD applications and i hope i´ll get the RAD power of Delphi / C# combined with the backend power of C++ (C++/CLI). If C++ will be changed in that way that it can compile (nearly) as fast as the other languages i will surely prefer C++ for RAD *g*. Quote: VS.NET C++ tools are going to be the future, I'd just as soon not bother with today's WinForms and wait for the next iteration of VS.NET., or better yet, the next iteration of BCB BCB has fair good RAD capabilities and the C++ team has done a fair good job in integrating C++ into the VCL framework. But regarding the IDE VC or CBuilderX have a much better project management. Andre Back to top Russell Hind Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Harold Howe [TeamB] wrote: Quote: If you want to use C++ as your language of choice, vs.net 2003 is sort of an ugly duckling. The C++ compiler is good, but writing managed code requires the use of numerous and cryptic language extensions. Learn to love the underscore key. I've created a fairly complex app doing robotics control, data acquisition with an RAD gui along with a couple of OpenGL 3D views in the GUI and had it compiling in both BCB and VS.Net using Managed C++. VS.Net isn't as polished as VCL as you say, but doesn't play nicely at all with C++ in its current form. Not sure how much C++/CLI will help with this. Biggest problem I had was getting standard C++ classes to be able to call back in to managed C++ classes e.g. forms. We use std::list<boost::function> for events. In VCL you can just get a member-function pointer and this pointer stored using boost::bind in a boost::function for a callback. You can't do this in managed C++ as I haven't found a way to get what is effectively a c function pointer to a member-function of a managed classs. This meant a lot of our current code just wouldn't work. I have managed to get it working but requried quite a bit of extra work to provide wrappers around all basic vcl/.net controls that took the library events and turned them in to standard C++ function calls. That way all code I wrote was written in standard C++ and the forms created through RAD in VCL or .Net were basically resources used to lay out the GUI and access the controls. It was a lot of work and now I have the basics in place, I can develop code that runs in both .Net and VCL but the bottom line is that VCL plays much more nicely with C++ then .Net does, even with the constructor differences etc of object pascal from C++. But the compiler is a big improvement so that will be a major driving factor for us to move to VS.Net unless Borland's open letter promises a much improved compiler in the open letter (if they plan to continue VCL development at all). Also, there are some very important areas of the VS.Net IDE which are far superior to BCB6 IDE (project manager and in VS.Net 2005 the debugger). Cheers Russell Back to top Hendrik Schober Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Harold Howe [TeamB] <hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: As Remy stated in this thread, it seems that the extensions in VS.NET are no longer relevant. The extensions in vs.net 2003 are replaced with different extensions in vs.net 2005. Still plenty of extensions. I suppose the old ones will continue to work, but I don't know for sure. Nevertheless, AFAIK you can freely mix and mingle std C++ with MC++ in VC2005. Also, no underscores anymore. :) Quote: H^2 Schobi -- [email]SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de[/email] is never read I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be prefered to those thinking they've found it." Terry Pratchett Back to top Matthew Mead Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps In article <41a2c89f (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, ##andre_no_spam_.kaufmann_ (AT) _x_t-online (DOT) de## says... Quote: I think you are comparing apples with oranges. E.g. you complained about that you can´t use std::string directly. Since WinForms are completely based on Unicode it would need (non visible) permanent conversion of the short I wasn't aware of the Unicode issues. One reason I want to "mix" the two is that we have lots of standard C++ code that implements classic data structures like red-black trees, graphs, hash tables, etc. We want to simply use the code as-is but be able to put a GUI on top of it. This is a no-brainer with BCB as I can easily put a GUI on top of the "back- end" code. Quote: Herb Sutter has IHMO done a fair good job with C++/CLI and STL.NET. I've read an article recently about this and it did sound promising. Quote: So forget about managed C++. That is one of my concerns: Do I bother to learn the whole managed C++ technology or wait for the "new and improved" way? This is the sort of "change" that I was referring to below. Especially if managed C++ might be deprecated. Quote: Huh ? Delphi can do STL ? No - but Delphi can do WinForms too. I mentioned Delphi in the context of a RAD tool for GUI development. I didn't mean to imply that the language capabilities were on par with C++. (Although, some people may say it's better because it's simpler. <g>) Quote: Have you had a look at it - how easy it´s to convert a VCL application to a VCL.NET one ? If Delphi would have STL support i would favor it over C++ for RAD. When Delphi 2005 arrives later this week, I will see how easy it is! <g> Quote: Poor design. Hm. What has MS changed so often regarding C++ ? MS hasn't changed anything with respect to C++ (except for their own extensions, which is not unique to MS.) Quote: In fact there has been nothing changed that much about the framework (MFC) in the last 10 years. This is actually a change that I would have welcomed. Comparing MFC to the VCL is not fair to MS. Fortunately, I only had to work with MFC on a few projects. Unfortunately, I had already had experience working with the VCL, so by comparison, MFC really looked inferior. Quote: I don´t need C++ RAD, but what i need is a tight integration of my C++ code into RAD applications and i hope i´ll get the RAD power of Delphi / C# combined with the backend power of C++ (C++/CLI). This kind of sums up what I was talking about in that I have lots of C++ that I would simply like to "plug in" to a RAD application. Not all of the development requires RAD, just the front-end. Although, I think some people equate RAD with GUI. (When I think RAD, I think GUI.) Quote: BCB has fair good RAD capabilities and the C++ team has done a fair good job in integrating C++ into the VCL framework. But regarding the IDE VC or CBuilderX have a much better project management. We build all of our "back-end" code using the VC IDE. It has an excellent debugger and project manager. For the front-end, I definitely prefer BCB. This might explain why I'm not as vocal as other BCB users regarding the future of BCB, since I don't do all of my work in BCB. However, it would be really great to have a single tool that does both very well. Incidentally, before BCB (circa 1995), I had tons of C/C++ code written with Borland C++ (ver. 3.1, I think). It took about 6 months to develop the C++ DOS command-line app. I needed to put a GUI on it and run it under Windows. I chose to put all of the C/C++ code in a DLL and create the GUI with Delphi 1. I spent about a day to get the DOS .exe into a Windows DLL using MSVC++ and about a week to get the Delphi GUI up and running with the DLL. That was a turning point in the way that I looked at programming languages/environments. I no longer felt that I must code *everything* in a single language/environment. I have worked with many developers since then who believe that *everything* in a project must be coded with exactly one tool and one language. Bad times. -- Matthew Mead Project JEDI - www.delphi-jedi.org Integrate Java and Delphi - www.pacifier.com/~mmead/jni/delphi Back to top Hendrik Schober Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Matthew Mead <me (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: In article <41a2c89f (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com>, ##andre_no_spam_.kaufmann_ (AT) _x_t-online (DOT) de## says... I think you are comparing apples with oranges. E.g. you complained about that you can´t use std::string directly. Since WinForms are completely based on Unicode it would need (non visible) permanent conversion of the short I wasn't aware of the Unicode issues. One reason I want to "mix" the two is that we have lots of standard C++ code that implements classic data structures like red-black trees, graphs, hash tables, etc. We want to simply use the code as-is but be able to put a GUI on top of it. This is a no-brainer with BCB as I can easily put a GUI on top of the "back- end" code. How about 'std::basic_string<TCHAR>'? Quote: [...] Schobi -- [email]SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de[/email] is never read I'm Schobi at suespammers dot org "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be prefered to those thinking they've found it." Terry Pratchett Back to top Peted Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:40:22 +0000, Russell Hind <no-one (AT) no-where (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I've created a fairly complex app doing robotics control, data acquisition with an RAD gui along with a couple of OpenGL 3D views in the GUI and had it compiling in both BCB and VS.Net using Managed C++. If you could point me to some info on how to do opengl in managed c++ ..net, that would be appreciated thanks Back to top Mike Margerum Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps I'm pretty sure .net 2.0 will allow you to much more easily use the STL in conjunction with managed code. Duane Hebert wrote: Quote: "Harold Howe [TeamB]" <hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com> wrote You didn't mention a programming language. From a RAD standpoint, vs.net + winforms + C# is almost as good as BCB + VCL. However, if you start developing an app with vs.net, you will start to see that the phrase "almost as good as" can be replaced with "takes a backseat to". winforms is just not as polished as the VCL. Well he asked about STL so I assume he means non managed C++. From my POV, msvc 7.1 is a very good c++ compiler but AFAICS winforms requires managed extensions. Back to top Russell Hind Guest Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Opinions: BCB6 vs. VS.NET WinForms for RAD GUI apps Peted wrote: Quote: If you could point me to some info on how to do opengl in managed c++ .net, that would be appreciated I used plain old win32 opengl stuff. Created a panel in .Net, then got its window handle and used that. This is because I already have my own opengl classes written for win32 and that all still works in .Net and managed C++. 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