BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  OT: Next Generation Web Protocol Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Daniel Becroft Guest Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:18 pm    Post subject: OT: Next Generation Web Protocol Hey all, Just a quick, off-topic question for you guys: Do you think a protocol suite will ever be developed that could replace TCP/IP, and if so, what timeframe would be required to make the transition? Personally, I think there is far too much code, hardware, and infrastructure, for a replacement to be developed in the next, say 10-25 years. However, having said that, in about 10 years time, the amount of code, hardware, etc would have increased dramatically, making the replacement problem even more difficult. However, how long can TCP/IP continue? It was originally developed back in about 1973 or so, which makes it a fairly old protocol, nearly as old as the Internet. These are just my thoughts. -- Daniel Becroft ; ================================= "Real computer scientists don't comment their code. The identifiers are so long they can't afford the disk space." "Blue sparks and white smoke, the two most expensive components of any electrical system, and once used up will cost a fortune to replace." Back to top marc hoffman Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol Daniel, Quote: Do you think a protocol suite will ever be developed that could replace TCP/IP, and if so, what timeframe would be required to make the transition? you mean like a - say - IPv6? <g> Back to top Daniel Becroft Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol marc hoffman wrote: Quote: Daniel, Do you think a protocol suite will ever be developed that could replace TCP/IP, and if so, what timeframe would be required to make the transition? you mean like a - say - IPv6? IPv6 is basically a better version of ONE of the protocols in the TCP/IP suite. It is still compatible with IPv4, so there isn't much issue here. I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. -- Daniel Becroft ; ================================= "Real computer scientists don't comment their code. The identifiers are so long they can't afford the disk space." "Blue sparks and white smoke, the two most expensive components of any electrical system, and once used up will cost a fortune to replace." Back to top theo Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol Quote: I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. Why? Back to top Thomas Edison Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:49:32 +0200, theo wrote: Quote: I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. Why? If it ain't broke, keep fixing it 'til it is. <g> Back to top Uffe Kousgaard Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol "Thomas Edison" <tjd (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote Quote: If it ain't broke, keep fixing it 'til it is. LOL ! Back to top Mike Swaim Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol Daniel Becroft wrote: Quote: I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. No, for several reasons. 1) They're already implemented on a huge variety of hardware. Any replacement would have to offer major benefits to get everybody to switch. 2) They exist independant of each other. I could see SMTP being replaced by something else, thanks to the spam problem, but that won't affect FTP, or anything else. 3) Other things use TCP/IP as well, such as netmeeting, and instant messaging. You'll have to get all of them to switch, too. For example, look at ATM. You'll probably find that almost all of the installations are running TCP over ATM, rather than ATM directly. -- Mike Swaim [email]swaim (AT) hal-pc (DOT) org[/email] at home | Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W & D MD Anderson Dept. of Biostatistics & Applied Mathematics [email]mpswaim (AT) mdanderson (DOT) org[/email] or [email]mswaim (AT) odin (DOT) mdacc.tmc.edu[/email] at work ICBM: 29.763N -95.363W|Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for MD Anderson. Back to top Martin Harvey (Demon Acco Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:44:04 +0200, "marc hoffman" <mh (AT) spam (DOT) spam> wrote: Quote: you mean like a - say - IPv6? Yeah, but TCP on the top of that will be mostly unchanged ... I say "mostly" because ISTR the basic mechanism will be the same, but there are issues with the current version concerning window sizes & sequence space sizes, specially for links iwht very high bandwidth delay products - (gigabit ethernet & faster). MH. Back to top Marc Rohloff [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol On 22 Jul 2004 19:02:54 -0700, Daniel Becroft wrote: Quote: you mean like a - say - IPv6? IPv6 is basically a better version of ONE of the protocols in the TCP/IP suite. It is still compatible with IPv4, so there isn't much issue here. No IPv6 is a replacement for TCP/IP.. AFAIK v6 is not compatible with v4 there is a gateway between the two networks. Quote: I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. These are protocols which ruin over TCP they have nothing to do with it apart from that. Most of these protocols simply pass text over the TCP connection and would work as well with any other protocol. -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff at myrealbox dot com Back to top Marc Rohloff [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:51:24 +0100, Thomas Edison wrote: Quote: I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. If it ain't broke, keep fixing it 'til it is. Every time I open my mailbox I notice how broken SMTP is. -- Marc Rohloff [TeamB] marc rohloff at myrealbox dot com Back to top damian marquez Guest Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:35 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol Marc Rohloff [TeamB]" <"on request <"on request"> wrote: Quote: Every time I open my mailbox I notice how broken SMTP is. So true. It is so SIMPLE that it hurts. -- Have you seen Marillion's Marbles? Visit www.marillion.com and get in touch with the most amazing music... Back to top Hrvoje Brozovic Guest Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol "Daniel Becroft" wrote in message Quote: I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. Where did you get the idea that HTTP and SMTP have anything to do with TCP/IP? Those are both pure information exchange protocols that can be implemented by two people sitting oppsite on the desk and handing paper messages to each other. Back to top Daniel Becroft Guest Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:08 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol Hrvoje Brozovic wrote: Quote: "Daniel Becroft" wrote in message I was asking if anyone thinks a suite could ever replace the entire TCP/IP protocol suite, e.g HTTP, FTP, TELNET, SMTP, DNS, UDP, ARP, etc. Where did you get the idea that HTTP and SMTP have anything to do with TCP/IP? Yes, and they are both part of the TCP/IP protocol suite. The suite consist of four 'layers': Application, Transport, Network, and Physical. +---------------------------------------------------+ Quote: Application | SMTP, FTP, DNS, SNMP, NFS, RPC, TFTP, HTTP | +---------------------------------------------------+ Transport | TCP, UDP | +---------------------------------------------------+ Network | IP, IGMP, ICMP, RARP, ARP | +---------------------------------------------------+ Physical | < Any underlying physical network | technologies; mainly Ethernet > | +---------------------------------------------------+ Source: Forouzan(2003), TCP/IP Protocol Suite, Figure 2.15 Quote: Those are both pure information exchange protocols that can be implemented by two people sitting oppsite on the desk and handing paper messages to each other. That is true. Each of the Application layer protocols (HTTP, FTP, TELNET, etc) require the Transport layer protocols (TCP & UDP), and the Network layer protocols (IP, ARP, etc) in order to function correctly. HTTP cannot be used to transmit information by itself. Hope that helps, -- Daniel Becroft ; ================================= "Real computer scientists don't comment their code. The identifiers are so long they can't afford the disk space." "Blue sparks and white smoke, the two most expensive components of any electrical system, and once used up will cost a fortune to replace." Back to top Erik Springelkamp Guest Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol Daniel Becroft wrote: Quote: Where did you get the idea that HTTP and SMTP have anything to do with TCP/IP? Yes, and they are both part of the TCP/IP protocol suite. I think your source was bottom up, and just gave some examples of application protocols that could be run on top of TCP/IP. From the HTTP/1.1 RFC: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html HTTP communication usually takes place over TCP/IP connections. The default port is TCP 80 [19], but other ports can be used. This does not preclude HTTP from being implemented on top of any other protocol on the Internet, or on other networks. HTTP only presumes a reliable transport; any protocol that provides such guarantees can be used; -- Erik Springelkamp http://springelkamp.nl/ Back to top Daniel Becroft Guest Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: Next Generation Web Protocol Erik Springelkamp wrote: Quote: Daniel Becroft wrote: Where did you get the idea that HTTP and SMTP have anything to do with TCP/IP? Yes, and they are both part of the TCP/IP protocol suite. I think your source was bottom up, and just gave some examples of application protocols that could be run on top of TCP/IP. From the HTTP/1.1 RFC: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html HTTP communication usually takes place over TCP/IP connections. The default port is TCP 80 [19], but other ports can be used. This does not preclude HTTP from being implemented on top of any other protocol on the Internet, or on other networks. HTTP only presumes a reliable transport; any protocol that provides such guarantees can be used; And that, in no way, contradicts what I have said. That paragraph states how HTTP is used in relation to TCP connections. If you wanted, you could use HTTP over a raw IP connection, or a UDP connection. However, that does not eliminate the fact that HTTP is part of the TCP/IP Protocol Suite. http://www.protocols.com/pbook/tcpip1.htm That website lists the protocols included in the TCP/IP Protocol suite, grouped in the 7 layers of the OSI model. -- Daniel Becroft ; ================================= "Real computer scientists don't comment their code. The identifiers are so long they can't afford the disk space." "Blue sparks and white smoke, the two most expensive components of any electrical system, and once used up will cost a fortune to replace." 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