BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Re: All bugs should be fixed Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Non-Technical View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message BOB-O-MATIC Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed I used to do a lot of work with Progress 4GL/database. Progress Software has an awesome system for handling bugs: =================== Every reported bug is verified. If verified, the bug is documented as to what it is and how to reproduce it, and what versions it affects. Then, each documented bug is assigned a severity (from showstopper down to nuisance). Next, each bug is assigned a resolution timeframe such as Next Patch, Next Point Release, Next Version, etc. =================== And here's the good part: They distribute the "Progress Known Issues" document as a separate printed manual and as an online reference. This system introduces transparency and accountability, and works GREAT. Back to top Karlheinz Späth Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:32 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Yes. I used Progress 6 alot. Their Technical Bulletains and support were extraordinary. Borland should go that way too. Back to top Mike Niemann Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Dave, Agree completely. That said, I don't know how long you have been a Borland customer... or what prompted you to write. The culture at Borland believes in the "American business model for software "... While BugsExist do begin OnlyFixExistingBugsInNextRelease; //Note1 - Imbedded call to BuyNewVersion within OnlyFixExistingBugsInNextRelease //Note2 - Imbedded call to AddNewBugs within BuyNewVersion end; This algorithm is known as either an endless loop, or a business plan depending on your politics. <g> In the 7 years I've been a customer, I've seen no evidence this will change. Perhaps you should prepare for continuing disappointment. Regards, Mike Niemann "David Marcus" <davidmarcus (AT) alum (DOT) mit.edu> wrote Quote: All bugs should be fixed. Fix them or document them. Usually, it is better to just fix them. Either way, you made a mistake and you should do something about it. If you think that fixing your mistakes should wait until you've done something else, then you are only making more trouble for yourself in the long run. Fixing bugs is the correct plan from an ethical, customer relationship, and business perspective. Quality is more important than features in maintaining customer goodwill. The Japanese car makers learned this long ago. In industry, there are organizations like Six Sigma whose purpose is to remind companies of this simple fact. In software, we have refactoring, which is just the latest buzzword to express this same idea. The software industry has an advantage over most industries in that it is relatively simple to fix problems. You develop a patch, post it on your website, and send an email to your customers. Compare this with the effort of fixing a problem in a car. These days even textbooks have websites with lists of fixes. I can't understand how software companies can convince themselves that it is too expensive to fix bugs. I can give you several examples of products/companies that fix their bugs: Raize Components, TurboPower back in the Compuserve days, Lugaru Epsilon, JP Software, NexusDB, TeX. However, this isn't really relevant. Even if no company fixed their bugs, just because other people do something the wrong way, doesn't mean you should. I rarely found a bug in Turbo Pascal. Delphi is very impressive, and I wouldn't call it particularly buggy, but Borland's attitude towards fixing bugs is wrong. I would guess that the people in Borland who make the decisions don't develop software or use Borland's software development tools. Otherwise, it is hard to understand how they could support the current policy. The same philosophy of not fixing problems is what got NASA into trouble. The insulation wasn't supposed to break off the pipes during the space shuttle launch, but despite this, NASA didn't fix it. I'll say it again and make it stronger: All bugs should be fixed before you do anything else. -- David Marcus Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed This is a very naive view things. Have you ever worked for a company producing complex software? Quote: All bugs should be fixed. In an ideal world. Not gonna happen in this one though. Quote: Fix them or document them. Now that there is QC, Delphi's are being documented, aren't they? Quote: The software industry has an advantage over most industries in that it is relatively simple to fix problems. Depends what you mean by "fix". Sending out a patch can be relatively painless (depends on the app though, sometimes that is an extremely expensive thing to do. Think updating Windows in an organisation with thousands of machines). Actually finding and fixing the bug isn't necessarily so. There are bugs that QA can't duplicate, for a start. Quote: I can't understand how software companies can convince themselves that it is too expensive to fix bugs. Because they estimate how long it's going to take and what it's going to cost. They then weigh that against how important the bugs are. They also try and take into account revenue streams. There's guesswork involved, so there will always be arguments about what's right. Quote: but Borland's attitude towards fixing bugs is wrong. Supplying fixes for bugs is wrong? Borland have always released patches for Delphi. I posted the links to where they can be downloaded in an earlier message. You can't even complain about there not being a patch for D7, you can only complain that it's taking too long. But even if D8 comes out first, it doesn't mean a D7 patch will not be forthcoming, as previous versions have had updates before. When Anders and JK say they don't know if a D7 patch is coming, they mean exactly that. They don't know. There may or may not be a update. They don't know, and it won't be their decision. If you read their posts carefully you will see that they are completely in favour of an update. Quote: All bugs should be fixed before you do anything else. I don't agree with that at all. It is first off theoretically impossible to even find all the bugs, then there's the issue of whether or not the bugs are important or not. Eg I have no issues with any bugs in D7. From my point of view fixing the trivial stuff that I see others complaining about is a waste of time, and I would rather see new features that I would actually use. Borland cannot therefore please both me and you. They have to perform a balancing act because not all customers have the same opinions on bugs (sometimes customers don't even agree on whether something is a bug or not). **All** software companies make these decisions. Sometimes, if the products are simple enough, all known bugs can be fixed in a timely manner. Sometimes they can't. Cheers, Jim Cooper ____________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi with your Palm ____________________________________________ Back to top Ingvar Nilsen Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Jim Cooper wrote: Quote: When Anders and JK say they don't know if a D7 patch is coming, they mean exactly that. They don't know. There may or may not be a update. They don't know, and it won't be their decision. If you read their posts carefully you will see that they are completely in favour of an update. Fine, but that is not the point. "Somebody" at Borland knows, and a lot of customers want to know and they complain and have the right to do so. -- Ingvar Nilsen Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Quote: "Somebody" at Borland knows How do you know? What if they haven't decided yet? I would infer from the fact that Anders and JK are pusing for an update that no decision has yet been made. Quote: customers want to know And so they should. And both Anders and JK are pushing for greater openness on Borland's part generally. It is certainly better than it was. Quote: they complain and have the right to do so. Sure. Companies are equally free to ignore the complaints, of course But that's beside the point in this discussion. Cheers, Jim Cooper ____________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi with your Palm ____________________________________________ Back to top Serge Dosyukov Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed I've missed Rudy ;-) -- Serge Dosyukov Borland Delphi 6 product certified MCP "Programming is not a job; it is a style of life." Back to top Dave Nottage (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Jim Cooper wrote: Quote: Now that there is QC, Delphi's are being documented, aren't they? QC isn't just for Delphi, but I'm guessing you know that. Quote: Because they estimate how long it's going to take and what it's going to cost. They then weigh that against how important the bugs are. They also try and take into account revenue streams. There's guesswork involved, so there will always be arguments about what's right. I don't agree with that at all. It is first off theoretically impossible to even find all the bugs, then there's the issue of whether or not the bugs are important or not. Eg I have no issues with any bugs in D7. From my point of view fixing the trivial stuff that I see others complaining about is a waste of time, and I would rather see new features that I would actually use. Borland cannot therefore please both me and you. They have to perform a balancing act because not all customers have the same opinions on bugs (sometimes customers don't even agree on whether something is a bug or not). **All** software companies make these decisions. Sometimes, if the products are simple enough, all known bugs can be fixed in a timely manner. Sometimes they can't. There appears to be no point in talking sense here, Jim. -- Dave Nottage (TeamB) Back to top Mark Vaughan Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed "BOB-O-MATIC" <BOBOMATIC (AT) BESTLAKEVIEWS (DOT) COM> wrote in news:3f4e1aa4$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com: Quote: I used to do a lot of work with Progress 4GL/database. Progress Software has an awesome system for handling bugs: =================== Every reported bug is verified. If verified, the bug is documented as to what it is and how to reproduce it, and what versions it affects. Then, each documented bug is assigned a severity (from showstopper down to nuisance). Next, each bug is assigned a resolution timeframe such as Next Patch, Next Point Release, Next Version, etc. =================== And here's the good part: They distribute the "Progress Known Issues" document as a separate printed manual and as an online reference. This system introduces transparency and accountability, and works GREAT. also sounds GREAT...I'd love to see Borland adopt a similar approach -- Mark Vaughan ____________ Visit the Numerical Methods in Pascal web page at http://www-rab.larc.nasa.gov/nmp/fNMPhome.htm Back to top Karlheinz Späth Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Quote: All bugs should be fixed before you do anything else. Signed Back to top Dave Nottage (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed BOB-O-MATIC wrote: Quote: Every reported bug is verified. Are you saying they can reproduce *every* bug? If so, how, or why? -- Dave Nottage (TeamB) Back to top Allen Bauer Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Quote: This is a very naive view things. Have you ever worked for a company producing complex software? .... **All** software companies make these decisions. Sometimes, if the products are simple enough, all known bugs can be fixed in a timely manner. Sometimes they can't. Ahh.... the light of reason *does* exist... -- Allen Bauer RAD .NET IDE Architect Back to top Phil Shrimpton Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed In article <3F4E3376.96931EE8 (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk>, [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] says... Hi, Quote: All bugs should be fixed. In an ideal world. Not gonna happen in this one though. Well in our shop, we can't get sign off for a product release if there are any outstanding, reproducible, bugs, even if fixing them is at the expense of new features. But the difference between our shop and Borland is that our customers pay between 20 and 40% of the initial product purchase price per year for support and maintenance, which gives us the cash to fund the bug fixes. Phil Back to top Robert H Ruff Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed If they can't reproduce it, it's not a bug, it's an allegation. Back to top Rosimildo da Silva Guest Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: All bugs should be fixed Robert H Ruff wrote: Quote: If they can't reproduce it, it's not a bug, it's an allegation. yeah, like: "It works on my machine" <G> Rosimildo. 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