BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Re: GUI Handling          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi OO design View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Joanna Carter Guest Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Andy Gibson wrote: Quote: Just curious, but there hasn't been much talk regarding GUI handling with OPF based systems. Have you seen my articles on MVP? The combination of these two frameworks is particularly powerful, especially if you create an Attribute framework to replace the inadequate metadata provided by RTTI. Quote: In particular, regarding data aware/non data aware controls, and populating those non-data aware controls. In MVP the edit controls can be standard controls but you need to create interactors that take care of updating/validating input against the Model. Once these are in place, the edit control is an observer of the Model, or the Value (attribute) that is held inside the Model, and this allows automatic updating of the control when changes are made to the Attribute. Quote: What is the 'common' thing to do? Create a data wrapper around your objects so you can use data aware controls, or reject the data aware controls completely? If you look at previous discussions in this group on that topic, you will find players on both sides. I personally prefer the non-data-aware approach, but that is because I have an MVP framework to take care of the connection between Attribute and View. Quote: If so, do you code your own grids to run from a Object based list? You have to, but you can derive from standard controls, especially things like TListView that allows you to provide data on an 'as required' basis. Quote: What about design time? AFAIK, there is no way to create a TPerson based off a TObject at design time that you can 'set up' the GUI with unlike TDatasets containing TFields that you can assign grid columns / data aware controls to. Why not? there is no reason why you can't create a Collection component that connects to an ObjectStore component that talks to a database at design time. It only looks to the OPF like another connection. Quote: I'm interested in writing a system that is OPF based, but reinventing the wheel (from the point of view of having to code my own grids / datasets) is a little offputting, so is an endless line of 'edtLastName.Text := Person.LastName'. Have a look at the concept of TListView in its OwnerData mode, it really is quite powerful. Also consider that in the .NET framework, you can use a 'data-aware' control to display any object that has public properties and a grid/listbox to display any collection that supports the IList interface. Joanna -- Joanna Carter Consultant Software Engineer TeamBUG support for UK-BUG TeamMM support for ModelMaker Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: Just curious, but there hasn't been much talk regarding GUI handling with OPF based systems. Recently. Go back a little and you'll find plenty. Quote: In particular, regarding data aware/non data aware controls, and populating those non-data aware controls. The arguments over these two approaches went on for a bit :-) Quote: or reject the data aware controls completely? That's what I do, but then I've always had trouble with them. Maybe it's just the UIs I've had to write, but they never seem to do quite what I need them to. You can use an object-aware TDataset if you want to though. Quote: If so, do you code your own grids to run from a Object based list? I don't use grids any more. A bit 1990's isn't it? <vbg> Quote: I'm interested in writing a system that is OPF based It's fun, but it would be more cost-effective to use Bold. You are correct in that the UI part is more work than the pure persistence part. If you want yet another view of how this might work, have a look at the ..net framework, where you can hook controls up to objects and collections that support the right interfaces. Cheers, Jim Cooper ____________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi with your Palm ____________________________________________ Back to top Solerman Kaplon Guest Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Joanna Carter wrote: [snip] Quote: Also consider that in the .NET framework, you can use a 'data-aware' control to display any object that has public properties and a grid/listbox to display any collection that supports the IList interface. I've seen this being developed for the Jedi VCL Library, called the IFiller interface, separating data from their representation, mainly due to lot of componente providing lots of ways of doing the same basic thing. Solerman Back to top John Elrick Guest Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling "Jim Cooper" <jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk> wrote Quote: Hi Jim, SNIP Quote: I don't use grids any more. A bit 1990's isn't it? <vbg How do you handle a transaction item entry (like an invoice)? Please don't tell me the user has to click Add or Edit on every line John Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: How do you handle a transaction item entry (like an invoice)? Please don't tell me the user has to click Add or Edit on every line They need to click Add. All the things I've done like that recently have had far too much stuff to be able to put it in a grid, and the data has been highly hierarchical as well, so each item has collections of things hanging from it. They are automatically in edit mode, and there are no save or cancel buttons. I've been using listviews and treeviews of various types to display the data (often the items are grouped, too, hence the treeviews). The few screens that have had few enough editable values to get put in a grid use the same base form classes as it wasn't worth the effort doing anything else - they were rarely used forms like those for editing/adding users and such anyway. Cheers, Jim Cooper ____________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi with your Palm ____________________________________________ Back to top Eric Hill Guest Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: I've been using listviews and treeviews of various types to display the data (often the items are grouped, too, hence the treeviews). The few screens that have had few enough editable values to get put in a grid use the same base form classes as it wasn't worth the effort doing anything else - they were rarely used forms like those for editing/adding users and such anyway. Hi Jim. Do you by chance have any screenshots you could post? I'd be interested to see some if possible. Most of the stuff I've done of late has been grids to display the search results, and stock field-filled-forms to provide data entry and creation. One of the other guys I work with always says my screen design sucks 'cause I think like a developer not a user. Could be... that's why I'm always looking for examples of good quality screen design. Thanks! Eric Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: Do you by chance have any screenshots you could post? I'll try and do some (remind me if I forget). Bear in mind that I didn't get to design these screens in their entirety and they have colours and graphics that I personally wouldn't have chosen :-) Cheers, Jim Cooper ____________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi with your Palm ____________________________________________ Back to top John Elrick Guest Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling "Eric Hill" <eric (AT) ijack (DOT) net> wrote Quote: I've been using listviews and treeviews of various types to display the data (often the items are grouped, too, hence the treeviews). The few screens that have had few enough editable values to get put in a grid use the same base form classes as it wasn't worth the effort doing anything else - they were rarely used forms like those for editing/adding users and such anyway. Hi Jim. Do you by chance have any screenshots you could post? I'd be interested to see some if possible. Most of the stuff I've done of late has been grids to display the search results, and stock field-filled-forms to provide data entry and creation. One of the other guys I work with always says my screen design sucks 'cause I think like a developer not a user. Could be... that's why I'm always looking for examples of good quality screen design. I would be very interested as well...unfortunately, QuickBooks and Quicken set a very high standard...as a programmer we can call it '80's, but as a user, "why the H@!! do I have to click extra buttons just to add one extra line!" John Back to top Eric Hill Guest Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: I would be very interested as well...unfortunately, QuickBooks and Quicken set a very high standard...as a programmer we can call it '80's, but as a user, "why the H@!! do I have to click extra buttons just to add one extra line!" Agreed. I read a very interesting article about the UI for MS Money. Let me see here... ....still looking... There we go. http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwui/html/iuiguidelines.asp Quite a good article about basically holding the users' hand through your application. I like the ideas in the article, though I have problems getting my brain out of "deductive" mode. I've been writing software for too long. I need to quit and take up woodworking! <g> Mmmmmm. DeWalt power tools... Eric Back to top Marjan Venema Guest Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: getting my brain out of "deductive" mode. I've been writing software for too long. I need to quit and take up woodworking! <g> Mmmmmm. Doesn't help I'm afraid. (I make solid-wood furniture as a hobby.) Marjan ____________________________ Marjan Venema - BJM Software http://www.bjmsoftware.com http://www.bjmsoftware.nl Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: I would be very interested as well...unfortunately, QuickBooks and Quicken set a very high standard The data is more complex than Quicken, but we do remember things added in combo box lists and all that malarkey, we just don't use grids. I've put a screenshot in attachments. Look for "GUI example". Cheers, Jim Cooper ____________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi with your Palm ____________________________________________ Back to top Jim Cooper Guest Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Quote: Yes...very different than the stuff I'm dealing with. The data structures are different than I've normally had to deal with - highly hierarchical with relatively few records at the top level (in some cases expected to be only dozens for some time). Also most of the users are very computer illiterate (this came from the clients, and boy, were they right <g>), so we borrowed heavily from the Palm metaphors (the PocketPC ones are similar these days) to create very straightforward and very consistent UIs. So we don't have menus, obscure right-clicks etc, and we make sure there is only one way to do anything. The system admin side of things is not quite so neat, as we can assume a competent user, we hope :-) I also didn't like to say before, but I actually don't like the Quantum grid much. Probably best to keep that amongst ourselves though :-) Cheers, Jim Cooper ____________________________________________ Jim Cooper [email]jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk[/email] Tabdee Ltd http://www.tabdee.ltd.uk TurboSync - Connecting Delphi with your Palm ____________________________________________ Back to top David Novo Guest Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling Hi Joanna, I have not seen your articles on MVP. In fact, I don't even know what MVP stands for (outside of the sporting world that is). But your attribute framework sounded interesting and I would love to read more. Can you post a link? Thanks, Dave Back to top Joanna Carter Guest Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling David Novo wrote: Quote: I have not seen your articles on MVP. In fact, I don't even know what MVP stands for (outside of the sporting world that is). But your attribute framework sounded interesting and I would love to read more. Can you post a link? I have not published anything on the Attribute Framework yet. Essentially it is a system for providing metadata and validation for use in systems written using interfaces rather than classes. I hope to have an article written somewhere near BorCon time. You can find articles on MVP on my website www.carterconsulting.org.uk Joanna -- Joanna Carter Consultant Software Engineer TeamBUG support for UK-BUG TeamMM support for ModelMaker Back to top Bryan Crotaz Guest Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: GUI Handling "John McCarten" <john (AT) artantech (DOT) net> wrote Quote: "Jim Cooper" <jcooper (AT) tabdee (DOT) ltd.uk> wrote I've put a screenshot in attachments. Look for "GUI example". Its rather interesting what the nextgen of users are asking for. We are being pushed down the same path also. Also looks as if it would lend itself very well to a thin client especially HTML+javascript. 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