BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Re: Linux vs. Windows Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Peter Agricola Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows What do you think of CBX? Peter Back to top Adam Versteegen Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows Peter Thönell wrote: Quote: Our products must be available in both MS Windows and Linux. Haha, it almost seems like Borland paid someone to write this message... Peter, if you check out C++ Builder X you'll probably find what you're after. -- Vesty. Back to top Peter Agricola Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Peter Thönell" wrote: Quote: What do you think of CBX? Ahh... what's that? Haven't heard of it. Where have you been lately?<g> http://www.borland.com/cbuilderx/index.html Watch this group and/or http://bdn.borland.com for more details expected at the end of the week. Peter Back to top Hendrik Schober Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Peter Thönell" <petersven (AT) ebsuccess (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Our products must be available in both MS Windows and Linux. We currently use alot of Java and Visual C++, but we're looking for something for producing: - natively compiled modules (for efficiency) - GUI's I'm not sure where your problem is. VC and Java can take care of both goals. Quote: What are your comments on C++Builder in MS Windows compared to Linux? If you browse through recent discussions in this group you'll learn that Borland has just released a new product -- C++ BuilderX (CBX). Despite its name it is very different from C++ Builder (BCB). The main advantage of CBX is, that it runs on Windows as well as on Linux (as well as on Solaris -- in fact, as the IDE is written in Java, it runs on other platforms as well, although this isn't supported). Also, it comes with a preview of the new compiler (BCC6) which uses an EDG frontend and the Dinkumware std lib (both which should put it among the pack's leaders regarding std compliance). Finally, it comes with a preview of wxWindows- integration. Its main disadvantage is, that there is no mentioning of VCL anywhere close to CBX. Quote: - Any issues in porting source code? If you compare it to VC6, BCB6 is way more standard conforming. However, VC71 is better than BCB6. Standard compliance helps a lot when porting code. Quote: - Any functional differences? BCB comes with very easy to use RAD-capabilities. However, today nobody (outside of Borland) knows, whether this will eb usable in the future. Quote: - Does C++Builder use CLX and/or VCL ? BCB uses the VCL. Kylix uses CLX. Quote: - Any long term issues to be aware of? The uncertain future of VCL for C++. Quote: - Any other considerations? We build our GUIs with wxWindows using VC on Windows, CW on the Mac, and GCC on Linux. Quote: What do you think about C++Builder compared to: - Delphi - Java With BCB you get all those C++ features like templates etc., which is good (since it's very powerful) and bad (since it's very powerful). Quote: - plain C++ (avoid Visual C++) You can use BCB to write plain C++ or you can use the VCL, which isn't portable. Quote: Comparisons: - GUI: - Java Swing (how does that compare to C++Builder?) No idea. Quote: - C++ (plain and C++Builder) You can't write a GUI in plain C++. Quote: - Delphi is good Yeah. On one platform. (I was told that CLX is not as good as VCL.) Quote: - fast modules - Java is not optimal (reasonable when compiled?) - C++ is fast - Delphi is fast ObjectPascal misses some language features that allow for faster code (especially templates). Quote: - Competence within the company: - Java: ample skill - C++: ample skill - Delphi: not enough I have said it here numerous times during the last weeks, but here it goes again: Write your app so that you separate the GUI from the core code, and hide the GUI behind an interface. Then implement that interface using whatever GUI lib and tool set you like. You can use x-platform stuff or different stuff on every platform. Schobi -- [email]SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de[/email] is never read I'm Schobi at suespammers org "And why should I know better by now/When I'm old enough not to?" Beth Orton Back to top Mike Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows Peter Thönell wrote: Quote: - Any long term issues to be aware of? With repect to C++ you might want to ask that question in 3-4 weeks again; right now Borland has put BCB/VCL at an impasse. Back to top Oscar Fuentes Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Hendrik Schober" <SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de> writes: [snip] Quote: What do you think about C++Builder compared to: - Delphi - Java With BCB you get all those C++ features like templates etc., which is good (since it's very powerful) and bad (since it's very powerful). Maybe you meant on the last phrase "since it is very complex"? I'll go for a new war front here: for its power, C++ is extremely complex and obfuscated. Other languages gives the same or more power than C++, but on a easier way. <big evil grin> [snip] Quote: ObjectPascal misses some language features that allow for faster code (especially templates). s/code/coding/ [snip] -- Oscar Back to top Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows Oscar Fuentes <ofv (AT) wanadoo (DOT) es> writes: Quote: I'll go for a new war front here: for its power, C++ is extremely complex and obfuscated. Other languages gives the same or more power than C++, but on a easier way. big evil grin And those languages are for some reason rarely used, in comparison. I'm thinking Common Lisp, Objective Caml, etc. -- Chris (TeamB); Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Hendrik Schober" <SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de> wrote Quote: Its main disadvantage is, that there is no mentioning of VCL anywhere close to CBX. Not yet, anyway... Quote: BCB comes with very easy to use RAD-capabilities. However, today nobody (outside of Borland) knows, whether this will eb usable in the future. Yes, it will be. Borland already stated that RAD features would be introduced in a later release of CBX. Quote: BCB uses the VCL. Kylix uses CLX. That is not entirely true. BCB6 also includes CLX. Kylix runs on Linux, so what is the point of writing a cross-platform library that is only usable on a single platform? On the Windows platform, BCB6 and D6 are the entrypoint into CLX (don't know if CLX is included in D7 as well). Quote: You can't write a GUI in plain C++. Sure, you can. wxWindows proves that. The only requirement is access to the Platform API, which plain C+ does have access to as long as you have libs for the API. Quote: Yeah. On one platform. (I was told that CLX is not as good as VCL.) CLX is very bad, lots of problems, unfortunately. On top of just being plain slow on the Windows platform. Gambit Back to top Oscar Fuentes Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) <chris (AT) uzdavinis (DOT) com> writes: Quote: I'll go for a new war front here: for its power, C++ is extremely complex and obfuscated. Other languages gives the same or more power than C++, but on a easier way. big evil grin And those languages are for some reason rarely used, in comparison. I'm thinking Common Lisp, Objective Caml, etc. This is a constant on the tech industry: being good doesn't imply being the most popular. The true is that most people prefers being told what to do rather than deciding themselves. On this scenario, when you lack a competent fellow for guiding you, what can be done? Follow the hype. So, except for a few honorable exceptions (mainly on the scripting field) a language became popular because some strong corporation is pushing it hard (Java, C#). At least, the "it's compatible with the previous bug" criteria that raised C++ seems finished. -- Oscar Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows Quote: I'll go for a new war front here: for its power, C++ is extremely complex and obfuscated. Other languages gives the same or more power than C++, but on a easier way. There is more than a little truth in that statement. However those other languages often depend upon things behind the scenes which they provide to make such things happen, things that in C++ are accessable at the programmer level but which may be difficult to get at or alter in other languages. .. Ed Quote: Oscar Fuentes wrote in message news:y8vml95c.fsf (AT) wanadoo (DOT) es... Back to top Oscar Fuentes Guest Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Ed Mulroy [TeamB]" <dont_email_me (AT) bitbuc (DOT) ket> writes: Quote: I'll go for a new war front here: for its power, C++ is extremely complex and obfuscated. Other languages gives the same or more power than C++, but on a easier way. There is more than a little truth in that statement. However those other languages often depend upon things behind the scenes which they provide to make such things happen, things that in C++ are accessable at the programmer level but which may be difficult to get at or alter in other languages. The question now is: do you really need to do those things *often*? For instance, I want to be able to manage memory explicitly, although most of the time a garbage collector would be fine. Hence, if the language's default is garbage collection but it allows explicit memory handling, then it is more attractive to me than C++'s model. A language that forces you to work all the time using features that are only needed on corner cases has a flaw. Not saying that C++ is useless. Sure it is pretty adequate on some domains (where you need a "better C", mainly). It just seems to me that most projects that uses C++ would significantly benefit from other languages. (I know it is possible to use garbage collection in C++. In practice, it is more difficult than it seems, though) Finally, thinking about "things that in C++ are accessible at the programmer level", a problem with C++ is that it makes few things accesible, besides the raw machine underneath. For instance, the RTTI is really poor. No instrospection at all. There is no excuse for that, the compiler knows everything you would ever wanted to know. -- Oscar Back to top Hendrik Schober Guest Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" <gambit47.no.spam (AT) no (DOT) spam.yahoo.com> wrote: Quote: [...] BCB comes with very easy to use RAD-capabilities. However, today nobody (outside of Borland) knows, whether this will eb usable in the future. Yes, it will be. Borland already stated that RAD features would be introduced in a later release of CBX. However, nobody knows whether this will be BCB6's RAD features (aka VCL). Quote: BCB uses the VCL. Kylix uses CLX. That is not entirely true. BCB6 also includes CLX. [...] You're right, of course. I forgot about that. Quote: You can't write a GUI in plain C++. Sure, you can. wxWindows proves that. The only requirement is access to the Platform API, which plain C+ does have access to as long as you have libs for the API. I meant "plain C++" as opposed to using some API or lib. Quote: [...] Gambit Schobi -- [email]SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de[/email] is never read I'm Schobi at suespammers org "And why should I know better by now/When I'm old enough not to?" Beth Orton Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Hendrik Schober" <SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de> wrote Quote: However, nobody knows whether this will be BCB6's RAD features (aka VCL). They will when Borland finally releases that information shortly regarding VCL's future with CBX. Quote: I meant "plain C++" as opposed to using some API or lib. "plain" C++ has no concept of GUIs or Consoles at all. Those are both provided by external libraries specifically designed to work with them. C++ itself is just a coding language compiled into CPU machine code, nothing else. Everything else on top of it is just a matter of user programming. Gambit Back to top Hendrik Schober Guest Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows Remy Lebeau (TeamB) <gambit47.no.spam (AT) no (DOT) spam.yahoo.com> wrote: Quote: [...] However, nobody knows whether this will be BCB6's RAD features (aka VCL). They will when Borland finally releases that information shortly regarding VCL's future with CBX. "However, today nobody (outside of Borland) knows, whether this will be usable in the future." Quote: [...] "plain" C++ has no concept of GUIs or Consoles at all. Those are both provided by external libraries specifically designed to work with them. C++ itself is just a coding language compiled into CPU machine code, nothing else. Everything else on top of it is just a matter of user programming. "You can't write a GUI in plain C++." Quote: Gambit Schobi -- [email]SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de[/email] is never read I'm Schobi at suespammers org "And why should I know better by now/When I'm old enough not to?" Beth Orton Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Linux vs. Windows "Hendrik Schober" <SpamTrap (AT) gmx (DOT) de> wrote Quote: "However, today nobody (outside of Borland) knows, whether this will be usable in the future." VCL as-is is already usable in CBX as-is, just without the visual designers. 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