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Doug Kanter
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:10 pm Post subject: Replacing Delphi developers |
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Sorry about the potentially incendiary subject line, but it was the best
distillation of the question I could come up with. :-)
My 14 yr old son is making noise about learning programming. I have an
assortment of older resources (software, books) for stuff like Delphi 3 and
Paradox for Windows, probably version 5. I thought of pointing him toward
Delphi, but I'm wondering about something.
Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if you were
hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to find another Delphi
developer who might be able to pick up where you left off?
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David Reeve
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:55 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | Sorry about the potentially incendiary subject line, but it was the best
distillation of the question I could come up with. :-)
My 14 yr old son is making noise about learning programming. I have an
assortment of older resources (software, books) for stuff like Delphi 3
and
Paradox for Windows, probably version 5. I thought of pointing him toward
Delphi, but I'm wondering about something.
Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if you were
hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to find another Delphi
developer who might be able to pick up where you left off?
|
Funny you should mention that. It's something that gets cast up quite a lot.
As a consultant, I find that when the client is a large organisation, then I
have a problem with them getting the 'under a bus' type jitters. They tend
to see the programming language rather than the content as the problem, ie
they feel that anyone could do what was required provided they took the time
to learn the language. They fail to appreciate that the true barrier is the
content, which could be implemented in any language, yet could not be picked
up by just anyone. If a person is stopped by not being able to read Pascal,
versus C, then they are certainly not going to be able to understand a
substantial and sophisticated program.
So my 2 cents worth is to start programming in any language you can access.
It is experience with real-world applications development that matters.
Dave
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Ante Smolcic
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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I have worked in 3 companies with Delphi. They all had code so messed up
and that's because of two reasons:
- they've been changing developers from time to time and everyone of
them invented their own solution for the same problem
- developers that stayed were so crammed with stuff they had no time to
stop and make a good design
These companies could afford to lose a developer because even the
existing developers didn't know their code after a while. :)
Of course, a better company should have their projects well documented
and the code should be so well writen they ought to be able to change a
developer with no problem as well.
We are all expendable.  )
--
Mi o vuku, a vuk o nama!
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J French
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 02:55:48 GMT, "David Reeve"
<dree4456 (AT) big-pond (DOT) net.au> wrote:
| Quote: | "Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:rd7zb.12$H27.9 (AT) news02 (DOT) roc.ny...
Sorry about the potentially incendiary subject line, but it was the best
distillation of the question I could come up with. :-)
My 14 yr old son is making noise about learning programming. I have an
assortment of older resources (software, books) for stuff like Delphi 3
and
Paradox for Windows, probably version 5. I thought of pointing him toward
Delphi, but I'm wondering about something.
Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if you were
hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to find another Delphi
developer who might be able to pick up where you left off?
Funny you should mention that. It's something that gets cast up quite a lot.
As a consultant, I find that when the client is a large organisation, then I
have a problem with them getting the 'under a bus' type jitters. They tend
to see the programming language rather than the content as the problem, ie
they feel that anyone could do what was required provided they took the time
to learn the language. They fail to appreciate that the true barrier is the
content, which could be implemented in any language, yet could not be picked
up by just anyone. If a person is stopped by not being able to read Pascal,
versus C, then they are certainly not going to be able to understand a
substantial and sophisticated program.
So my 2 cents worth is to start programming in any language you can access.
It is experience with real-world applications development that matters.
|
If I am correct, then a rough translation of the above is :-
It is the Analysis that matters
- and Analysts are harder to replace than 'code monkeys'
I suggest that you start your son with a simple non-OO and
non-graphical language so that he can rapidly learn the principles of
coding
- rather than how to string together a load of 3rd party utilities
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Maarten Wiltink
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote
[...]
| Quote: | Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if
you were hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to
find another Delphi developer who might be able to pick up where
you left off?
|
Entirely too easy, grmbl. There must be ten times as many Delphi
unemployed as there are Delphi job openings. Five against fifty
or so. I am currently reading the API docs for Java, for crying
out loud.
There are two (more) sides to that question. I pride myself on
writing transparent and extensible code. To somebody with the same
qualifications at least. Preferably with (somewhat) the same style.
Such a person might all the same be less than trivial to find.
Because it's not so much the language, it's the design that matters.
The languages becomes irrelevant when you try to replace a *software*
*developer* with a component dropper.
Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink
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Dodgy
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 02:55:48 GMT, "David Reeve"
<dree4456 (AT) big-pond (DOT) net.au> waffled on about something:
| Quote: | "Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:rd7zb.12$H27.9 (AT) news02 (DOT) roc.ny...
Sorry about the potentially incendiary subject line, but it was the best
distillation of the question I could come up with. :-)
My 14 yr old son is making noise about learning programming. I have an
assortment of older resources (software, books) for stuff like Delphi 3
and
Paradox for Windows, probably version 5. I thought of pointing him toward
Delphi, but I'm wondering about something.
Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if you were
hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to find another Delphi
developer who might be able to pick up where you left off?
Funny you should mention that. It's something that gets cast up quite a lot.
As a consultant, I find that when the client is a large organisation, then I
have a problem with them getting the 'under a bus' type jitters. They tend
to see the programming language rather than the content as the problem, ie
they feel that anyone could do what was required provided they took the time
to learn the language. They fail to appreciate that the true barrier is the
content, which could be implemented in any language, yet could not be picked
up by just anyone. If a person is stopped by not being able to read Pascal,
versus C, then they are certainly not going to be able to understand a
substantial and sophisticated program.
So my 2 cents worth is to start programming in any language you can access.
It is experience with real-world applications development that matters.
Dave
|
Very true.
I regularly debug code for people in languages I do not know.
Once you can recognise a loop and a conditional branch, you can pretty
much spot flawed logic from 20 paces.
My only exception to this would be C++. I avoid looking at it as much
as possible as it makes my eyes bleed!
I'm sure most C++ programmers could get to grips with Delphi pretty
quickly, it's nice and easy to read and shares a hell of a lot of
common ground. My big problem with C++ (apart from it's weakly typed -
"yeah sure I'll add that string to your memory pointer" attitude) is
it's possibly the hardest thing to read since Barbara Cartland kicked
the bucket.
Having said all that, there is something to be said for being in a
niche... I'm the only Delphi programmer in my company, so I have that
lovely job security you get from being unique. :-)
Dodgy.
--
MUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES
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Maarten Wiltink
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Dodgy" <Dodgy (AT) earth (DOT) planet.universe> wrote
[...]
| Quote: | Having said all that, there is something to be said for being in a
niche... I'm the only Delphi programmer in my company, so I have that
lovely job security you get from being unique.
|
I was the only programmer in my company, full stop. Note past tense.
Too bad software development isn't their core business.
Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink
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Dodgy
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:36:40 +0100, "Maarten Wiltink"
<maarten (AT) kittensandcats (DOT) net> waffled on about something:
| Quote: | "Dodgy" <Dodgy (AT) earth (DOT) planet.universe> wrote in message
news:29vrsv0sn5bfv87jr4oa3rnllh7f0i9uba (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
[...]
Having said all that, there is something to be said for being in a
niche... I'm the only Delphi programmer in my company, so I have that
lovely job security you get from being unique. :-)
I was the only programmer in my company, full stop. Note past tense.
Too bad software development isn't their core business.
|
Luckily our business involves integrating to many different systems
and I write the interface layers and front end apps.
/me breaths sigh of relief
Dodgy.
--
MUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES
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Doug Kanter
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Maarten Wiltink" <maarten (AT) kittensandcats (DOT) net> wrote
| Quote: | "Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:rd7zb.12$H27.9 (AT) news02 (DOT) roc.ny...
[...]
Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if
you were hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to
find another Delphi developer who might be able to pick up where
you left off?
Entirely too easy, grmbl. There must be ten times as many Delphi
unemployed as there are Delphi job openings. Five against fifty
or so. I am currently reading the API docs for Java, for crying
out loud.
There are two (more) sides to that question. I pride myself on
writing transparent and extensible code. To somebody with the same
qualifications at least. Preferably with (somewhat) the same style.
Such a person might all the same be less than trivial to find.
Because it's not so much the language, it's the design that matters.
The languages becomes irrelevant when you try to replace a *software*
*developer* with a component dropper.
Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink
|
So, the situation varies greatly from region to region.
When I asked my question, it wasn't because I expected him to stay with
Delphi exclusively if that's the thing he played with first. It was really
just curiosity.
I've also pointed out to him that I have some books on generic programming &
design principles. Books like "Code Complete", for instance. Hopefully,
he'll read that at some point. But, being a teenager, I think he's going to
be hungry for excitement first, and interested in fixing his mistakes later.
Unless, that is, his first experiment continually crashes the machine. That
should speed up the process. :-)
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Bruce Roberts
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | Sorry about the potentially incendiary subject line, but it was the best
distillation of the question I could come up with. :-)
My 14 yr old son is making noise about learning programming. I have an
assortment of older resources (software, books) for stuff like Delphi 3
and
Paradox for Windows, probably version 5. I thought of pointing him toward
Delphi, but I'm wondering about something.
Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if you were
hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to find another Delphi
developer who might be able to pick up where you left off?
|
Wrong question. The choice of first language is critical to the development
of a programmer. It is the foundation upon which their programming knowledge
will rest. What is important is not the language itself, but its ability to
let the student easily and without much pain explore various programming
concepts. It must also help the student develop good programming habits
because these habits will likely stay with them for the rest of their life.
Any language, be it natural or constructed, imposes a cultural context on
its user. In the case of programming languages one of the things they tend
to do is push users towards certain types of solutions. For instance, those
who work in BASIC tend to ignore recursive solutions simply because the
language doesn't make them easy to implement.
As others have said, the really important thing when learning to program is
not the language. What is important is how one approaches problem solving
and the types of algorithms one can use to achieve desired outcomes.
A good programmer will be able to learn other programming languages so one
shouldn't choose a first language because it offers more employment
opportunity. I think this is especially so in the case of youth who are
learning because they are interested, not because they need a job.
Delphi, like its ancestor Pascal, is IMO a very good first language. But
that is no real surprise, Pascal was designed as a pedagogical language.
There is a wealth of material that teaches programming concepts using Pascal
and most of it can be used with Delphi.
Just as importantly, the Delphi IDE makes program development very easy. So
that step doesn't get in the way of learning important programming concepts.
More over its just plain fun to use and offers immediate positive feedback
when one does things correctly.
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Doug Kanter
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Bruce Roberts" <ber (AT) bounceitattcanada (DOT) xnet> wrote
| Quote: |
"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:rd7zb.12$H27.9 (AT) news02 (DOT) roc.ny...
Sorry about the potentially incendiary subject line, but it was the best
distillation of the question I could come up with. :-)
My 14 yr old son is making noise about learning programming. I have an
assortment of older resources (software, books) for stuff like Delphi 3
and
Paradox for Windows, probably version 5. I thought of pointing him
toward
Delphi, but I'm wondering about something.
Those of you who are developing professionally with Delphi....if you
were
hit by a car, how easy would it be for your clients to find another
Delphi
developer who might be able to pick up where you left off?
Wrong question. The choice of first language is critical to the
development
of a programmer. It is the foundation upon which their programming
knowledge
will rest. What is important is not the language itself, but its ability
to
let the student easily and without much pain explore various programming
concepts. It must also help the student develop good programming habits
because these habits will likely stay with them for the rest of their
life.
Any language, be it natural or constructed, imposes a cultural context on
its user. In the case of programming languages one of the things they tend
to do is push users towards certain types of solutions. For instance,
those
who work in BASIC tend to ignore recursive solutions simply because the
language doesn't make them easy to implement.
As others have said, the really important thing when learning to program
is
not the language. What is important is how one approaches problem solving
and the types of algorithms one can use to achieve desired outcomes.
A good programmer will be able to learn other programming languages so one
shouldn't choose a first language because it offers more employment
opportunity. I think this is especially so in the case of youth who are
learning because they are interested, not because they need a job.
Delphi, like its ancestor Pascal, is IMO a very good first language. But
that is no real surprise, Pascal was designed as a pedagogical language.
There is a wealth of material that teaches programming concepts using
Pascal
and most of it can be used with Delphi.
Just as importantly, the Delphi IDE makes program development very easy.
So
that step doesn't get in the way of learning important programming
concepts.
More over its just plain fun to use and offers immediate positive feedback
when one does things correctly.
|
I'm already leaning toward Delphi, but for other reasons which may be
equally important: I first learned what little programming I know while
using Paradox for DOS v3.5. Right away, I began asking questions in
discussion groups on Compuserve, and the Paradox community was unbelievably
helpful. People who obviously had bigger fish to fry would stop and write
two page responses to my questions. From what I've seen here, that tradition
seems to have been carried over to the Delphi community. That could be a
valuable resource for my son. Sometimes, books just don't cut it.
However, I'm curious: If Delphi didn't exist, what would be your next choice
for a 14 year old who seems to be serious about pursuing programming (and
whose dad is a stickler for good coding habits)?
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Jud McCranie
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:38:10 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
<ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | Books like "Code Complete", for instance.
|
That's one of my very favorite books.
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J French
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:06:50 -0500, "Bruce Roberts"
<ber (AT) bounceitattcanada (DOT) xnet> wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: | Wrong question. The choice of first language is critical to the development
of a programmer. It is the foundation upon which their programming knowledge
will rest. What is important is not the language itself, but its ability to
let the student easily and without much pain explore various programming
concepts. It must also help the student develop good programming habits
because these habits will likely stay with them for the rest of their life.
|
True - but one learns from mistakes
| Quote: |
Any language, be it natural or constructed, imposes a cultural context on
its user. In the case of programming languages one of the things they tend
to do is push users towards certain types of solutions. For instance, those
who work in BASIC tend to ignore recursive solutions simply because the
language doesn't make them easy to implement.
|
Eh, recursion in MS BASICs has been dead easy since ... about 1984
- and was no problem for earlier non-MS variants
| Quote: | As others have said, the really important thing when learning to program is
not the language. What is important is how one approaches problem solving
and the types of algorithms one can use to achieve desired outcomes.
|
Agreed
| Quote: | A good programmer will be able to learn other programming languages so one
shouldn't choose a first language because it offers more employment
opportunity. I think this is especially so in the case of youth who are
learning because they are interested, not because they need a job.
|
Yup - results, rather than trip wires
| Quote: | Delphi, like its ancestor Pascal, is IMO a very good first language. But
that is no real surprise, Pascal was designed as a pedagogical language.
There is a wealth of material that teaches programming concepts using Pascal
and most of it can be used with Delphi.
|
IMO Delphi is not a good language to start with
- Pascal perhaps, but I'm not that sure
- structure is something that (IMO) one should *learn* to see as a
friend - a bit like Grammar when speaking or writing
<snip>
The first thing is to find out whether the kid is a 'natural'
programmer
- whether the machine can warp his mind, so he thinks like a machine
If you can't switch into 'machine mode' then forget coding
IMO Coders are rather like accountants - and that is not perjoritive.
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Doug Kanter
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Jud McCranie" <j.mccranieNOSPAMMM (AT) adelphia (DOT) net> wrote
| Quote: | On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:38:10 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
[email]ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email]> wrote:
Books like "Code Complete", for instance.
That's one of my very favorite books.
|
"About Face" is pretty good, too. About user interface design. And...."PAL
By Example", about the Paradox app language. But, it's amazing how many good
ideas I got from that, which apply to other languages. Good luck finding it,
though.
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Bruce Roberts
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Replacing Delphi developers |
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"Doug Kanter" <ancientangler (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | I'm already leaning toward Delphi, but for other reasons which may be
equally important: I first learned what little programming I know while
using Paradox for DOS v3.5. Right away, I began asking questions in
discussion groups on Compuserve, and the Paradox community was
unbelievably
helpful. People who obviously had bigger fish to fry would stop and write
two page responses to my questions. From what I've seen here, that
tradition
seems to have been carried over to the Delphi community. That could be a
valuable resource for my son. Sometimes, books just don't cut it.
|
Very true, but I think you will find that most usenet ng devoted to
programming languages have enthusiastic participants.
| Quote: | However, I'm curious: If Delphi didn't exist, what would be your next
choice
for a 14 year old who seems to be serious about pursuing programming (and
whose dad is a stickler for good coding habits)?
|
There is at least one open source Pascal compiler, so following Delphi my
next choice would probably be some extended Pascal. After that I'm not
really sure where I'd go. Oberon deserves some consideration
([url]http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/)[/url]. ISTM that any choice would have to be strongly
typed and include OO constructs (standard Pascal doesn't). You might want to
check the CS department web sites of some of the major universities. The
University of Toronto, for example, used to (don't know if they still do)
use a language they had developed in-house. IIRC a Windows version was
available. IMO any language that traces its ancestry through ALGOL and
includes objects is probably a viable candidate.
I actually find it easier suggesting languages to avoid: BASIC (although I
would consider VB), C, C++ (because the syntax truly sucks  ), COBOL, LISP,
FORTRAN, APL, Forth, and all so called 4th GL (including Clipper, FoxPro,
and Paradox). I'm ambivalent about Java mostly because I don't feel that I
know it well enough to get over its C roots.
You might find http://cliki.tunes.org/Programming%20Languages of interest.
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