BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  softwire for basm? Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> Delphi Language BASM View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Gordon Cowie Guest Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: softwire for basm? Anyone remember softwire? It was an awesome sourceforge project with some impressive demos. Basically it was a class to make dynamically generating code much easier. For example you would do something like this.. sw.mov(eax,ebx); sw.imul; etc calling the methods simply appends the appropriate code to a buffer. @sp := sw.AllocProc gives you the actual method pointer of function pointer. I'm just stabbing at what the syntax would look like in delphi. The original project was for C++. So the original project isn't around anymore because a company called transgaming adopted it into a product similarly named swiftshader. They hired the main developer from the softwire project and insisted that he remove the project from sourceforge. Anyways. Is anyone interested in starting a similar project for delphi? It would be a great way to support cpu specific instructions or optimizations without having to have the entire compiled versions for each cpu. Back to top Nicholas Sherlock Guest Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:03 am    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Gordon Cowie wrote: Quote: Basically it was a class to make dynamically generating code much easier. For example you would do something like this.. sw.mov(eax,ebx); sw.imul; etc [...] Anyways. Is anyone interested in starting a similar project for delphi? It would be a great way to support cpu specific instructions or optimizations without having to have the entire compiled versions for each cpu. This sounds really neat and it's certainly a tool that I want in my toolkit. I'd be happy to help out. Cheers, Nicholas Sherlock -- http://www.sherlocksoftware.org Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Quote: For example you would do something like this.. sw.mov(eax,ebx); sw.imul; Wouldn't something like sw('mov(eax, ebx)'); sw('imul'); actually be preferable? This way your ASM can be generated at runtime, based on parameterization, some code generators or templates, etc. While with the sw.mov(eax,ebx); sw.imul; syntax, asm instructions are actually hardwired at compile-time, and this will behave like BASM maintainance-wise the only thing that can be softwired being the low-level implementation (which wouldn't be really useful either, as ASM is CPU-specific, you would just get suboptimal ASM, ie. get no better than what regular, non-ASM code, could have given you). Eric Back to top Nicholas Sherlock Guest Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Eric Grange wrote: Quote: with the sw.mov(eax,ebx); sw.imul; syntax, asm instructions are actually hardwired at compile-time, and this will behave like BASM maintainance-wise the only thing that can be softwired being the low-level implementation (which wouldn't be really useful either, as ASM is CPU-specific, you would just get suboptimal ASM, ie. get no better than what regular, non-ASM code, could have given you). Yes, but there are situations where this is useful, especially when you are patching code and creating stubs for calling other methods. I could replace records like this: tthiscalljumpstruct = packed record d1, d2, d3, d4, d5, d6: byte; push1: byte; oldaddress: pointer; pusheax: byte; push2: byte; newaddress: pointer; ret: byte; end; And associated ugly, write-only code: j.d1 := $8B; j.d2 := $04; j.d3 := $24; j.d4 := $89; j.d5 := $0C; j.d6 := $24; j.push1 := ipush; j.oldaddress := oldaddress; j.pusheax := ipusheax; j.push2 := ipush; j.newaddress := newaddress; j.ret := iret; With code like this: sw.mov(eax,[esp]); sw.mov([esp],ecx); sw.push(oldaddress); sw.push(eax); sw.push(newaddress); sw.ret; Cheers, Nicholas Sherlock -- http://www.sherlocksoftware.org Back to top Gordon Cowie Guest Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Quote: Wouldn't something like sw('mov(eax, ebx)'); sw('imul'); I think you're missing the idea of the class. It acts as a run-time assembler. The methods are not to be executed in place. Just building a page of code (optimized code for whatever circumstance) then call the resulting function pointer from the inner loop. In the actual softwire project, each x86 instruction was wrapped with a method.. overloaded with all the possible combinations of parameters and even some helpful reference in the popup hint. The method just appends the right sequence of bytes to a memory buffer (later to be referenced by your function ptr). Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Quote: I think you're missing the idea of the class. It acts as a run-time assembler. I understood that, but it's a runtime assembler based on a set of method calls that were fixed at runtime (the code that makes the calls to the class methods is compiled and cannot change), thus the ASM that you'll be assembling is determined at compile-time. Quote: The methods are not to be executed in place. Just building a page of code (optimized code for whatever circumstance) then call the resulting function pointer from the inner loop. ....but the page of code you're building has a content determined at compile time, by the code that will invoke the class, so your ASM is as hardwired as if you had used BASM... I can see the rationale behind that for languages that don't have much or any inline assembly capability, but if you have one, you're just exchanging one assembler for another, instead of hardwiring the opcodes, you're hardwiring the calls that will generate the opcodes. Eric Back to top Lord Crc Guest Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:28:35 +0100, Eric Grange <egrangeNO (AT) SPAMglscene (DOT) org> wrote: Quote: Wouldn't something like sw('mov(eax, ebx)'); sw('imul'); actually be preferable? This way your ASM can be generated at runtime, based on parameterization, some code generators or templates, etc. If you implement the original proposal, couldn't you simply implement a parser on top of it, allowing for expressions like you're suggesting? - Asbjørn Back to top Eric Grange Guest Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Quote: If you implement the original proposal, couldn't you simply implement a parser on top of it, allowing for expressions like you're suggesting? You could, but 'simply' and 'parser' in the same sentence do not usually turn out so simple in the end ;) And in that particular case, parsing to generate as sw.mov(eax, ebx) from 'mov eax, ebx' would be at least as complex as assembling it directly into an opcode in the first place, and likely turn out even more complex as asm instructions can be tabulated (cf. my x86asm unit), and their assembly streamlined, while tabulating and streamlining method invokations isn't as straightforward. There is also the issue of composite instructions parameters, such as mov eax, [esi+edx*2+4] or qualifiers as in with f.i. fld dword ptr [eax+edx] fld qword ptr [esp-4] etc. which do not lend themselves to being expressed as method calls. Eric Back to top Gordon Cowie Guest Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Quote: I understood that, but it's a runtime assembler based on a set of method calls that were fixed at runtime (the code that makes the calls to the class methods is compiled and cannot change), thus the ASM that you'll be assembling is determined at compile-time. .... I can see the rationale behind that for languages that don't have much or any inline assembly capability, but if you have one, you're just exchanging one assembler for another, instead of hardwiring the opcodes, you're hardwiring the calls that will generate the opcodes. Eric Perhaps my example was too simple. If you were to use the softwire class without any conditional logic (to dynamically generate code), then yes, there is no point in using it at all. However, the softwire class makes using conditional logic a cinch: if( mmx in cpu.capabilities ) then begin sw.psubw(...) sw.pmullw(...) .. end else //non mmx code... This is just for the sake of example as I'm sure you will argue the practicality of such an approach to supporting mmx (how is this easier than just writing an mmx version and a non mmx version?). Although, it is an alternative to writing an mmx version, sse version, 3dnow version, amd, pentium, 486. One function instead of 10.. for extremely common RTL routines with plenty of optimized paths it's probably a nice way to offer the best performance on any cpu without the bloat. Other uses could be simpler. For instance shift functions on the pentium are much faster when given immediate data.. but it's rare we can write such code without it being extremely optimized for a certain case. However, with softwire you can write a function which takes your parameters and generates the optimized function for you with immediate data. I'm sure I don't have to explain the benefits of dynamically generating code. Back to top Gordon Cowie Guest Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Quote: Wouldn't something like sw('mov(eax, ebx)'); sw('imul'); actually be preferable? This way your ASM can be generated at runtime, based on parameterization, some code generators or templates, etc. If you implement the original proposal, couldn't you simply implement a parser on top of it, allowing for expressions like you're suggesting? - Asbjørn Yes. And instead of a syntax identical to asm (what's the point?) you could be parsing a regular expression and generating compiled code. This is close to what ultimately became of the original softwire project.. except instead of parsing regular expressions it is being used to parse a type of shader expression. Back to top Gordon Cowie Guest Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? Quote: There is also the issue of composite instructions parameters, such as mov eax, [esi+edx*2+4] or qualifiers as in with f.i. fld dword ptr [eax+edx] fld qword ptr [esp-4] etc. which do not lend themselves to being expressed as method calls. Eric The original softwire project handled things like this. You would add variables and/or memory locations and reference them later. The methods were overloaded to take parameters for registers immediate data or memorylocation "variables". Back to top Benjamin Rosseaux Guest Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? And that would be only some hours to be to work for me. Back to top Benjamin Rosseaux Guest Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? I could extend my assembler ( http://bero.0ok.de/page/index.php?p=27 ) to a runtime assembler, if you want. T0A supports all known x86-16 and x86-32 opcodes. Back to top Lord Crc Guest Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:31:30 +0100, Eric Grange <egrangeNO (AT) SPAMglscene (DOT) org> wrote: Quote: You could, but 'simply' and 'parser' in the same sentence do not usually turn out so simple in the end Well, I agree that there are easier things around However, the asm language is much more restricted/limited than say Pascal. For me the hard part would be the "construction" of the resulting bytes. I agree about the "compound" statements though. And thinking a bit more, i think the other way around would be preferable. Ie have the core take strings and parse them, and then if needed, extend it to having an object that takes fixed parameters. - Asbjørn Back to top Alan Garny Guest Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: softwire for basm? "Lord Crc" <lordcrc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:4gaev1dhvdk3qmeav1r3huruh2a9g2mpj1 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... Quote: On Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:31:30 +0100, Eric Grange egrangeNO (AT) SPAMglscene (DOT) org> wrote: You could, but 'simply' and 'parser' in the same sentence do not usually turn out so simple in the end Well, I agree that there are easier things around However, the asm language is much more restricted/limited than say Pascal. For me the hard part would be the "construction" of the resulting bytes. If all you are doing is to convert some asm statements into opcode, then it's relatively simple. That's, in fact, what I do for my project, where I convert mathematical equations into opcode (it allows one to edit a mathematical model, parse it and then run it by 'compiling it' rather than interpreting it or generating some Pascal/C/C++/etc. code that is then compiled and dynamically linked back to the project). Quote: I agree about the "compound" statements though. And thinking a bit more, i think the other way around would be preferable. Ie have the core take strings and parse them, and then if needed, extend it to having an object that takes fixed parameters. That's becoming a bit more complex, but still feasible indeed... Alan. 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