BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Stephen Waits Guest Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:34 am    Post subject: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Bought BORL stock because I believed in them. Bought it because they were a company making development tools that I loved to use, and knew to be the best. Bought them because they had promise. Suffered these past 3 or 4 years watching idiot PHB's lead Borland into complete oblivion. Gotta say, feels great to get out... --Steve (I'll still use BCPPBuilder damnit!) Back to top Guest Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Amazing!... that you found someone to buy your BORL.. They must be from other planet... Quote: Bought BORL stock because I believed in them. Bought it because they were a company making development tools that I loved to use, and knew to be the best. Bought them because they had promise. Suffered these past 3 or 4 years watching idiot PHB's lead Borland into complete oblivion. Gotta say, feels great to get out... --Steve (I'll still use BCPPBuilder damnit!) Back to top Danzer Guest Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Stephen Waits wrote: Quote: Bought BORL stock because I believed in them. Bought it because they were a company making development tools that I loved to use, and knew to be the best. Bought them because they had promise. Suffered these past 3 or 4 years watching idiot PHB's lead Borland into complete oblivion. Gotta say, feels great to get out... --Steve (I'll still use BCPPBuilder damnit!) <mental note> Strong BORL buy signal. </mental note> Back to top Chris Uzdavinis (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Danzer <danzer (AT) REMOVEknology (DOT) net> writes: Quote: mental note Strong BORL buy signal. /mental note As of right now: BORL BORLAND SFTWARE 11.65 +0.17% -- Chris (TeamB); Back to top Mike Margerum Guest Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. I actually think BORL is a strong buy. if it goes down to 10, i'm buying it. Back to top Michael McCulloch Guest Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:50 am    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:45:34 -0500, Mike Margerum <mike (AT) junk (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I actually think BORL is a strong buy. Why? The stock hasn't done anything since 1997 and is currently at a 52 week high. Wait six months and buy it at $8/sh. --- Michael McCulloch Back to top Stephen Waits Guest Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Michael McCulloch wrote: Quote: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:45:34 -0500, Mike Margerum wrote: I actually think BORL is a strong buy. Why? The stock hasn't done anything since 1997 and is currently at a 52 week high. Wait six months and buy it at $8/sh. Exactly. Those of us who've been in this stock for a long time know that 11.50 is pretty good. It might breakout.. but generally it seems to just be riding along with the rest of the market. In my eyes, I no longer see value in this company, a company I once strongly evangelized as the best development tool developer in the world. Sad day... --Steve Back to top Michael Gillen Guest Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Michael McCulloch wrote: Quote: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:45:34 -0500, Mike Margerum wrote: I actually think BORL is a strong buy. Why? The stock hasn't done anything since 1997 and is currently at a 52 week high. Wait six months and buy it at $8/sh. --- Michael McCulloch I bought at $4.75. What the heck, I'll let it ride. -Michael Back to top Danzer Guest Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Stephen Waits wrote: Quote: Exactly. Those of us who've been in this stock for a long time know that 11.50 is pretty good. It might breakout.. but generally it seems to just be riding along with the rest of the market. In my eyes, I no longer see value in this company, a company I once strongly evangelized as the best development tool developer in the world. Sad day... --Steve Since this entire thread is moving toward off-topic, I will continue the trend. I am a trader and lurk in this and other Borland newsgroups because all of my technical analysis tools are written in BCB. My comment had nothing to do with the value of Borland as a company. It was more of a contrarian viewpoint along the lines of the old trading axiom "buy fear and sell greed". Back to top Mike Margerum Guest Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. begin 5 years ahead of anyone else in the ALM front. Only reason. Michael McCulloch wrote: Quote: On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:45:34 -0500, Mike Margerum wrote: I actually think BORL is a strong buy. Why? The stock hasn't done anything since 1997 and is currently at a 52 week high. Wait six months and buy it at $8/sh. --- Michael McCulloch Back to top Mike Margerum Guest Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. I just wish they'd cut the architect price. I think they have a winner there. Back to top Stephen Waits Guest Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Mike Margerum wrote: Quote: begin 5 years ahead of anyone else in the ALM front. Only reason. ALM is garbage. PHB's love it.. developers need development tools. --Steve Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:57 am    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Pardon my jumping in but you say "ALM is garbage". Why? "PHB's love it" - What is a "PHB"? .. Ed Quote: Stephen Waits wrote: begin 5 years ahead of anyone else in the ALM front. Only reason. ALM is garbage. PHB's love it.. developers need development tools. Back to top Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr. Guest Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Ed Mulroy [TeamB] wrote: Quote: Pardon my jumping in but you say "ALM is garbage". Why? "PHB's love it" - What is a "PHB"? . Ed Stephen Waits wrote: begin 5 years ahead of anyone else in the ALM front. Only reason. ALM is garbage. PHB's love it.. developers need development tools. Boy Ed...what a topic for me to "chime in" on. A subject I hold near and dear to my frigid heart. Where to start...where to start....I'll boil actually. It's all about CONTROL. "Process Control" as a matter of fact. Management for years think has a "Control fixation". Everyone has this or that development methodology to throw at the "problem" of software development ( Agile , XP, MOA, CDA , etc. ), but the fact of the matter isn't so much in my 20+ years in this business in WHAT methodology you employ, so much as the APPLICATION OF the methodology you employ. Managers jump on this or that, thinking it's the "Best thing to happen to development next to the discovery of the New World". They don't necessarily learn the full implication of any given methodology before embarking down the primrose path they take, they usually end up dictating that decision to the developers ( Who usually whine about it. And to those you who do, "Quit it, or I'll turn this car around, and no one gets to go the merry-go-round". ), who for the most part, have nothing to say about it. The problem with "MOST" software development organizations is that management wants to controls practically every bodily function related to the production of software. I can't say as I necessarily blame them, but it's to their discredit that they have these "Control issues". IF most management were actually competent in fostering productive development environments ( even while pushing a methdology they only understand by "name" ), more good software would be produced, on time ( realistic time ), and closer ( on budget...who came up with the initial costs figures ? Oh, that's right, the same guy who thinks "XP" refers to the latest Microsoft OS, and thinks "eXtreme Programming" is software development done while rock climbing a butte in New Mexico ) to budget. SO. What does all that ranting have to do with ALM. I'm glad you asked, ALM is just ONE MORE ridiculous attempt by management to "get their control on" ( my apologies to those who came up with the vernacular phrase "get their freak on" ). What is wrong with it, is that most ALM implementations require a complete though process makeover, not only to how the vast majority of developers have been taught in universities ( please, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but no major UNI that I know of, provides an undergrad course in "Application Lifecycle Management" ), but also how people work as, PEOPLE. ALM hopes to engender a generation of developers who fit Boz Eloy's impression of what we are: 1. We're not creative, we just do what we're told. 2. We have no creative thought to add to the process. 3. Only the Architect has the "overall vision" ( Yeah, Right, don't make me laugh already ). 4. Only management has the mandate to control "the process". Think I'm kidding, look it up online yourself. Go to sdmagazine.com, and look for an interview with him and Dale, from Sept 2004. ALM is a nice idea, but frankly, works only in concert with a "sweatshop" style of development organization. From reading this, and other newsgroups and forums for years, I think I can safely say that in the "western world", that just isn't going to fly. ALM hopes to impose stricter controls over a process that isn't as clearly cut as mechanical, as most management folks have the dilusional impression that it is. You can disagree with that assessment, but hey, you're welcome to work for a "sweatshop" organization if you want. Knock yourself out. Marcelo Lopez Back to top Ed Mulroy [TeamB] Guest Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Sold all my BORL and feel great about it.. Some of what you wrote seems to suggest that you saw my question in a context that I did not intend. I was sincerely asking what your objections were. Quote: ... It's all about CONTROL ... Yes and no. We all can agree that there are problems in software development which are structural, derived from the methods (or lack of methods) that developers use. Some methods are better than others. Which ones are better mostly depends upon the task and the situation. The desire to do things in a manner which gets the best results is a fair goal and management cannot be blamed for that. Developers share that general desire (the ones who do not are not worth a bucket of warm spit). The whole ALM argument seems to be over implementation, work rules, not over the goals of creating a reliable, maintainable product in a reasonable length of time. We all agree with those goals. I favor development involving a pencil and paper or the on-screen equivalent. Only when you know 1-what the software is supposed to do, and 2-what the (at least general) design for it is are you able to plan a schedule, estimate cost and resource requirements and assess the risks in its development. What I have seen that is very common is developers who are looked upon as 'golden boys' but whose work habits are abomidable. They don't plan, go straight to code, expect QC/QA to find any bugs, often will not fix them, expecting others to program around the deficiencies in the modules they create and blame everyone else for what they in fact did. For a non-trivial hunk of code I plan, prototype, and, if need be, am very willing to repeatedly cycle through code-debug-evaluate to get a good product out. The lack of front-end work on a project and the idea that quickly coded and buggy modules are programmer output while the QC/QA phase is where bugs are found and fixed are common problems. (Do not read into this. "The lack of front-end work" does NOT indicate a desire for a tool to describe a project as pretty, labeled boxes connected with lines). I don't think a lot of Extreme Programming. XP too often is used as the label for pairing a "high self esteem, self important but can't program his way out of a paper bag" golden boy with someone who knows what he is doing in a manner where the competent guy is made junior to the idiot that management loves. Quote: ...in my 20+ years... Ever written this? BALR 15,0 USING *,15 .. Ed Quote: Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr. wrote: Boy Ed...what a topic for me to "chime in" on. A subject I hold near and >dear to my frigid heart. Where to start...where to start....I'll boil actually. It's all about CONTROL. "Process Control" as a matter of fact. Management for years think has a "Control fixation". Everyone has this or that development methodology to throw at the "problem" of software development ( Agile , XP, MOA, CDA , etc. ), but the fact of the matter isn't so much in my 20+ years in this business in WHAT methodology you employ, so much as the APPLICATION OF the methodology you employ. Managers jump on this or that, thinking it's the "Best thing to happen to development next to the discovery of the New World". They don't necessarily learn the full implication of any given methodology before embarking down the primrose path they take, they usually end up dictating that decision to the developers ( Who usually whine about it. And to those you who do, "Quit it, or I'll turn this car around, and no one gets to go the merry-go-round". ), who for the most part, have nothing to say about it. The problem with "MOST" software development organizations is that management wants to controls practically every bodily function related to the production of software. I can't say as I necessarily blame them, but it's to their discredit that they have these "Control issues". IF most management were actually competent in fostering productive development environments ( even while pushing a methdology they only understand by "name" ), more good software would be produced, on time ( realistic time ), and closer ( on budget...who came up with the initial costs figures ? Oh, that's right, the same guy who thinks "XP" refers to the latest Microsoft OS, and thinks "eXtreme Programming" is software development done while rock climbing a butte in New Mexico ) to budget. SO. What does all that ranting have to do with ALM. I'm glad you asked, ALM is just ONE MORE ridiculous attempt by management to "get their control on" ( my apologies to those who came up with the vernacular phrase "get their freak on" ). What is wrong with it, is that most ALM implementations require a complete though process makeover, not only to how the vast majority of developers have been taught in universities ( please, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but no major UNI that I know of, provides an undergrad course in "Application Lifecycle Management" ), but also how people work as, PEOPLE. ALM hopes to engender a generation of developers who fit Boz Eloy's impression ofwhat we are: 1. We're not creative, we just do what we're told. 2. We have no creative thought to add to the process. 3. Only the Architect has the "overall vision" ( Yeah, Right, don't make me laugh already ). 4. Only management has the mandate to control "the process". Think I'm kidding, look it up online yourself. Go to sdmagazine.com, and look for an interview with him and Dale, from Sept 2004. ALM is a nice idea, but frankly, works only in concert with a "sweatshop" style of development organization. From reading this, and other newsgroups and forums for years, I think I can safely say that in the "western world", that just isn't going to fly. ALM hopes to impose stricter controls over a process that isn't as clearly cut as mechanical, as most management folks have the dilusional impression that it is. You can disagree with that assessment, but hey, you're welcome to work for a "sweatshop" organization if you want. Knock yourself out. Ed Mulroy wrote: Pardon my jumping in but you say "ALM is garbage". Why? "PHB's love it" - What is a "PHB"? 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