BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue Goto page 1, 2  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Randall Parker Guest Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:43 am    Post subject: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue Suppose that Borland announces that BCB will continue to remain dead. Well, how long are each of you going to continue to use BCB v5 or v6? I figure for the apps I have in it I ought to stick with using BCB for the next 3 or 4 years until the .NET alternative matures or maybe even longer. I do not want the drawbacks of .NET and do not see it as having any advantages for the kinds of apps I write. As it stands now unless you want to abandon C++ if you do really complex GUIs using RAD with lots of 3rd party controls there is not a good alternative. The C++ standard for .NET is still getting hammered out and so you can't even shift to .NET C++ for GUI RAD if you wanted to. If you are willing to abandon C++ then that opens up Delphi and MS's C# dev tool as alternatives. So if BCB remains dead I'll stick with BCB. Eventually I'll probably start doing some C++/CLI development using whatever MS is offering as a C++ RAD tool in some future year. How about you? Back to top Graham Thompson Guest Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue Pretty much the same conclusion I've come to. We haven't even moved to BCB6 yet due to the size of our BCB5 codebase, and we already know how to work around BCB5's behavioural quirks. Our house language is C++ so Delphi isn't really an option. Having said that, I'm meeting with management to discuss the whole issue this afternoon ... so my 'plan' might get changed 8-) "Randall Parker" <STOPtechiepundit (AT) EVILfuturePOXpunditSPAM (DOT) com> wrote in message news:41907497$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... <snip> Quote: So if BCB remains dead I'll stick with BCB. Eventually I'll probably start doing some C++/CLI development using whatever MS is offering as a C++ RAD tool in some future year. How about you? Back to top David Perkins Guest Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue Quote: How about you? Pretty much the same as the two of you, but I'd also make a point of avoiding any Borland product in future. Back to top Morten Espeland Guest Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue I would have to continue with BCB6 for at least half a year because of ongoing projects, but from then on .NET seems more and more rosy, especially when future job opportunities are considered. Morten Espeland Back to top Duane Hebert Guest Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue "Randall Parker" <STOPtechiepundit (AT) EVILfuturePOXpunditSPAM (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Suppose that Borland announces that BCB will continue to remain dead. Well, how long are each of you going to continue to use BCB v5 or v6? As far as my team is concerned, it doesn't matter what Borland announces re:BCB. As long as it's built on Delphi, this is not an option. We currently only use BCB for requested changes to legacy projects that haven't been converted to other tools. If they announce continuing CBX we would be interested in a cross platform IDE with a compliant compiler. The bugs would have to be fixed though and a cross platform compiler would be nice. Back to top Arnie Mauer Guest Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue "Randall Parker" <STOPtechiepundit (AT) EVILfuturePOXpunditSPAM (DOT) com> wrote in message news:41907497$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Suppose that Borland announces that BCB will continue to remain dead. Well, how long are each of you going to continue to use BCB v5 or v6? I figure for the apps I have in it I ought to stick with using BCB for the next 3 or 4 years until the .NET alternative matures or maybe even longer. I do not want the drawbacks of .NET and do not see it as having any advantages for the kinds of apps I write. As it stands now unless you want to abandon C++ if you do really complex GUIs using RAD with lots of 3rd party controls there is not a good alternative. The C++ standard for .NET is still getting hammered out and so you can't even shift to .NET C++ for GUI RAD if you wanted to. If you are willing to abandon C++ then that opens up Delphi and MS's C# dev tool as alternatives. So if BCB remains dead I'll stick with BCB. Eventually I'll probably start doing some C++/CLI development using whatever MS is offering as a C++ RAD tool in some future year. How about you? Answering your original question, Borland's decision doesn't matter. We're leaving. We have a very large 'product' sold to a fairly small customer base. Most of the EXEs, about 150+, use ADOExpress (BCB 5). These are server-based console apps or Win service apps. Long ago, we used BDE (ugh!). I created our own DB objects that inherited from ADOExpress and presented the same API as the BDE. Now, I'm in the process of porting these to encapsulate the native ADO interface (ugh, again!). I'm using VC++ for this. When completed, all of our console programs will be using VC++ and ADO (native). The client is another story - probably 200-300 modules. We use a few 3rd party controls. But, we have created 30-40 of our own custom controls derived from VCL objects. The good news is that BCB 5 hasn't stopped compiling yet So, there's no big rush. However, we're continously adding new functionality and I really HATE to keep using BCB for this. Our server-side code is pretty heavy duty. The port to VC++ presages a port to 64 bit. The client code is 'heavy' but doesn't require nearly the performance or memory the server routines do. We'll probably go with either managed C++ or C# for this, though not for a couple of years. I should have stuck with assembler. - Arnie Back to top Michael McCulloch Guest Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:52:23 +0100, "Morten Espeland" <mortenes (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I would have to continue with BCB6 for at least half a year because of ongoing projects, but from then on .NET seems more and more rosy, especially when future job opportunities are considered. I'm not sure the industry is going to embrace .NET en masse. All the changes currently in progress from Microsoft are BECAUSE the market said NO. I think Microsoft is pushing too hard for "new technology" that leaves too much legacy code behind. The US economy just doesn't have the capital to rewrite all the code out there that runs business and engineering of all kinds. For example, do you know of any ISV that has a pure .NET version of an enterprise level accounting tool? A manufacturing process/flow/ERP tool? Medical records/imaging management tool? Structural analysis/FEA tool? These are massive applications that can't (and won't) be rewritten overnight. IMO, Microsoft needs to provide a better reason for us to move to .NET besides their own profit motives. Frankly, I think the computer and information systems world is a complete mess right now. The bubble has burst and customers want efficiency and cost effective solutions to solve real problems -- not the latest eye candy or buzzwords from Microsoft. Nevertheless, Microsoft keeps moving the goalposts and the industry struggles to keep pace while the available capital dries up. Borland is making a huge mistake by buying wholesale into this .NET hype/mess and writing off existing Win32 customers. It may kill them for good. If BCB is abandoned, I for one will NEVER buy or recommend a Borland product again in my little corner of the world. --- Michael McCulloch P.S. I read a little about XAML and was stunned that anyone thinks this is innovative. Apple's InterfaceBuilder has used the same technology for GUI design for 3+ years now. All we are talking about is a file format for saving a GUI layout. And I think it is insane to try and mix executable code instructions into the same file. We get to learn *yet another* set of scoping rules? For what gain? Back to top Pete Fraser Guest Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue I think Borland are doing a better job than MS because they *are* supporting Win32. Delphi 2005 supports Win32 AND .NET and I think this is good. Hopefully, BCB 2005 if it happens will do the same: C++VCL/C++ for CLI/.NET. But maybe that's just hopefull. Rgds Pete "Michael McCulloch" <michael (AT) nospam (DOT) invalid.com> wrote Quote: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:52:23 +0100, "Morten Espeland" [email]mortenes (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email]> wrote: I would have to continue with BCB6 for at least half a year because of ongoing projects, but from then on .NET seems more and more rosy, especially when future job opportunities are considered. I'm not sure the industry is going to embrace .NET en masse. All the changes currently in progress from Microsoft are BECAUSE the market said NO. I think Microsoft is pushing too hard for "new technology" that leaves too much legacy code behind. The US economy just doesn't have the capital to rewrite all the code out there that runs business and engineering of all kinds. For example, do you know of any ISV that has a pure .NET version of an enterprise level accounting tool? A manufacturing process/flow/ERP tool? Medical records/imaging management tool? Structural analysis/FEA tool? These are massive applications that can't (and won't) be rewritten overnight. IMO, Microsoft needs to provide a better reason for us to move to .NET besides their own profit motives. Frankly, I think the computer and information systems world is a complete mess right now. The bubble has burst and customers want efficiency and cost effective solutions to solve real problems -- not the latest eye candy or buzzwords from Microsoft. Nevertheless, Microsoft keeps moving the goalposts and the industry struggles to keep pace while the available capital dries up. Borland is making a huge mistake by buying wholesale into this .NET hype/mess and writing off existing Win32 customers. It may kill them for good. If BCB is abandoned, I for one will NEVER buy or recommend a Borland product again in my little corner of the world. --- Michael McCulloch P.S. I read a little about XAML and was stunned that anyone thinks this is innovative. Apple's InterfaceBuilder has used the same technology for GUI design for 3+ years now. All we are talking about is a file format for saving a GUI layout. And I think it is insane to try and mix executable code instructions into the same file. We get to learn *yet another* set of scoping rules? For what gain? Back to top Luigi Bianchi Guest Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue Doesn't MS support Win32? Luigi Back to top Jacob Rohde Guest Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue "Pete Fraser" <pete._no_spam_fraser (AT) frasersoft (DOT) nospam.net> skrev i en meddelelse news:4191d6d8 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: I think Borland are doing a better job than MS because they *are* supporting Win32. Delphi 2005 supports Win32 AND .NET and I think this is good. VS.NET supports Win32 AND .NET (and many, many other technologies). Back to top Vladimir Stefanovic Guest Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue MS .NET 2003 environment includes VC++, which is the only non .NET thing that is the package. That's probably done not to angry VC++ users ;) Best regards, Vladimir Stefanovic Luigi Bianchi <nonono (AT) nonono (DOT) no> wrote Quote: Doesn't MS support Win32? Luigi Back to top Michael McCulloch Guest Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 08:52:35 -0000, "Pete Fraser" <pete._no_spam_fraser (AT) frasersoft (DOT) nospam.net> wrote: Quote: I think Borland are doing a better job than MS because they *are* supporting Win32. Delphi 2005 supports Win32 AND .NET and I think this is good. That is a step in the right direction. What are the initial reports of Delphi 2005's stability, bugs, and documentation? Is it a rushed or polished release? Also, given my experience with BCB, I'm afraid choosing Delphi is out of the question. That last thing I want is to write my code in a MORE vendor-specific language and face the same dilemma again. At least my existing C/C++ code in BCB is somewhat portable to other dev tools (it ported fairly easily to the MacOS X Cocoa environment). Quote: Hopefully, BCB 2005 if it happens will do the same: C++VCL/C++ for CLI/.NET. But maybe that's just hopefull. For me to continue with Borland it has to occur. Otherwise, I'm done with Borland. --- Michael McCulloch Back to top Sten Larsson Guest Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue Michael McCulloch wrote: Quote: Also, given my experience with BCB, I'm afraid choosing Delphi is out of the question. That last thing I want is to write my code in a MORE vendor-specific language and face the same dilemma again. At least my existing C/C++ code in BCB is somewhat portable to other dev tools (it ported fairly easily to the MacOS X Cocoa environment). Exactly !!! I have no interest what-so-ever in Delphi, though it is a good environment. (It is another thing being locked in to the "standard" vendor - i.e. Microsoft.) I had hoped for Kylix to enable my code base to be cross platform, but it didn't work out that way (the way I see it). At least all my non-gui stuff is portable the way I have written it. -sten Back to top Randall Parker Guest Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue My guess is that once MS comes out with their new C++/CLI translating C++ code from VCL to .NET will be less work than translating from C++/VCL to OP/VCL. The downside to going to .NET of course is that programs will be bigger and slower to start and slower to run. Plus, there is all the work it making the transition. Plus, the 3rd party controls market for it is not yet as mature. I am not switching to OP. I don't want to program in that less rich language. I do not want to program in that language for GUI stuff and then C++ for my non-GUI stuff that has to be in C++. And as Michael points out, why go down an even more vendor-specific path with a vendor that is not huge and which may not be able to stay the distance in the long run? If Borland wants to come out with a new Win32 C++ VCL dev tool rev then I'll stick with Win32 years longer than I will if I have to continue to work with BCB v6 sp4. My guess Borland is going to leave us in an abandoned state with BCB. Sten Larsson wrote: Quote: Michael McCulloch wrote: Also, given my experience with BCB, I'm afraid choosing Delphi is out of the question. That last thing I want is to write my code in a MORE vendor-specific language and face the same dilemma again. At least my existing C/C++ code in BCB is somewhat portable to other dev tools (it ported fairly easily to the MacOS X Cocoa environment). Exactly !!! I have no interest what-so-ever in Delphi, though it is a good environment. (It is another thing being locked in to the "standard" vendor - i.e. Microsoft.) I had hoped for Kylix to enable my code base to be cross platform, but it didn't work out that way (the way I see it). At least all my non-gui stuff is portable the way I have written it. -sten Back to top Andre Kaufmann Guest Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:24 am    Post subject: Re: Suppose Borland says they will leave BCB in the morgue "Randall Parker" <STOPtechiepundit (AT) EVILfuturePOXpunditSPAM (DOT) com> wrote Quote: My guess is that once MS comes out with their new C++/CLI translating C++ code from VCL to .NET will be less work than translating from C++/VCL to OP/VCL. The downside to going to .NET of course is that programs will be bigger and slower to start and slower to run. Plus, there is all the work it making the transition. Plus, the 3rd party controls market for it is not yet as mature. I would say the opposite regarding the size: They are much smaller or equal in size if you use runtime packages. 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