BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  VCL.NET and C++ VCL          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Saulo I. Regis Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:27 am    Post subject: VCL.NET and C++ VCL So MS states that .Net is Window's future. We all know that WIN32 will be around for years ahead but the day will come when WIN32 will have no future (according to MS mantra). According to the statement above (according to MS), OP VCL one day will have no future. So Borland is generating the VCL of the future as a future must be given to VCL. And the next generation VCL deals with new paradigms that breaks current WIN32 VCL! This is true to .NET VCL! All the huge component base of WIN32 VCL is lost under .NET VCL, that is what makes VCL strong. Since this is the situation, why Borland doesn't do it right this time? Why not a future VCL coded in cross-platform C++ that can be used by all languages under Prime Time IDE umbrella? In just one year, or two, the third party players will be more than motivated to generate the whole family of components available to WIN32 VCL. Saulo Back to top Saulo I. Regis Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL "Pete Fraser" <pete._no_spam_fraser (AT) frasersoft (DOT) nospam.net> escreveu na mensagem news:41766369 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: especially as once C++/CLI comes out there will be no need for VCL as WinForms will do C++ RAD for you.(Much as I hate .NET being an embedded programmer by heart). You are thinking MS only! Saulo Back to top Pete Fraser Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL Because it would take too long to do for no appreciable reward. They already have a VCL for .NET which is the Pascal one modified slightly and enhanced but not broken. So there is no money in it. Whilst I am all for a C++ VCL, I don't see Borland ever doing it, especially as once C++/CLI comes out there will be no need for VCL as WinForms will do C++ RAD for you.(Much as I hate .NET being an embedded programmer by heart). I see the next BCB as having VCL for Win32 and C++/CLI for .NET support. Nothing else is required. But then what do I know? Rgds Pete "Saulo I. Regis" <saulo (AT) password (DOT) info> wrote Quote: So MS states that .Net is Window's future. We all know that WIN32 will be around for years ahead but the day will come when WIN32 will have no future (according to MS mantra). According to the statement above (according to MS), OP VCL one day will have no future. So Borland is generating the VCL of the future as a future must be given to VCL. And the next generation VCL deals with new paradigms that breaks current WIN32 VCL! This is true to .NET VCL! All the huge component base of WIN32 VCL is lost under .NET VCL, that is what makes VCL strong. Since this is the situation, why Borland doesn't do it right this time? Why not a future VCL coded in cross-platform C++ that can be used by all languages under Prime Time IDE umbrella? In just one year, or two, the third party players will be more than motivated to generate the whole family of components available to WIN32 VCL. Saulo Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL Pete Fraser wrote: Quote: I see the next BCB as having VCL for Win32 and C++/CLI for .NET support. Nothing else is required. It could use the VCL for .NET as well. The VCL for .NET is a normal ..NET library. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] "Computers are useless; they can only give you answers." -- Pablo Picasso Back to top Pete Fraser Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL I guess that would help with porting current apps. I don't particularly want people decompiling my apps which is another reason for not liking .NET Rgds Pete "Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]" <velthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Pete Fraser wrote: I see the next BCB as having VCL for Win32 and C++/CLI for .NET support. Nothing else is required. It could use the VCL for .NET as well. The VCL for .NET is a normal .NET library. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] "Computers are useless; they can only give you answers." -- Pablo Picasso Back to top Saulo I. Regis Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL "Leo Saguisag (Borland)" <lsaguisag_at_borland_dot_com> escreveu na mensagem news:4176c59e$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Hi Leo, Thank you for jumping in! Quote: Why not a future VCL coded in cross-platform C++ that can be used by all languages under Prime Time IDE umbrella? Not all to clear on what the Prime Time IDE has to do with the VCL. The Prime Time IDE is used by JBuilder and C++BuilderX, neither of which support a VCL designer as far as I know. I'm talking about future and I'm refering to a future Prime Time version. I'm targeting Prime Time for 2 good reasons: #1. As of today Prime Time was elected by Borland as a cross-platform IDE serving currently Java and C++; #2. Your boss, Mr. Dale, refered to Prime Time, in a recent interview, as a potential IDE to hold all languages supported by Borland, including Delphi! Quote: In just one year, or two, the third party players will be more than motivated to generate the whole family of components available to WIN32 VCL. The current approach is creating the Delphi.NET compiler and letting the third party players recompile their existing Delphi code to .NET. It saves them the trouble of having to re-write existing Delphi code and besides the resulting assemblies will be accessible to any .NET language such as C#, Managed C++, VB.NET and Delphi.NET. This is a very wise approach to leverage VCL to target another platform. Create a Delphi compiler to generate native code in the choosen platform and the legacy Delphi code can be easily ported to that target! Which others platforms will Borland target next? Will be the same done targeting Linux? Quote: What do you see as the flaw in this approach that re-writing the VCL to C++ will address? If Borland will create native Delphi compilers for others platforms, like Linux for instance, that guarantees the VCL portability to that platforms and the interoperationality of VCL with native C++ compilers in such platforms ... for me that's ok! My need is that Borland does generate a cross-platform framework! That this cross-platform framework, VCL, can be used to code my apps in C++ (not in Delphi) and... that I can compile/run this same code/framework in the others targeted platforms without re-code using native C++ compilers (from Borland or, if not, from 3rd parties)! Is it more economical to Borland, at this point, to create native Delphi compilers for each targeted platform OR is it more economical to re-write VCL in an already vastly developed cross-platform language like C++? Please... answer the questions I posted to you! Best Regards, Saulo Quote: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi (Return Of The Jedi) Back to top Leo Saguisag (Borland) Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL Saulo I. Regis wrote: Quote: Why not a future VCL coded in cross-platform C++ that can be used by all languages under Prime Time IDE umbrella? Not all to clear on what the Prime Time IDE has to do with the VCL. The Prime Time IDE is used by JBuilder and C++BuilderX, neither of which support a VCL designer as far as I know. Quote: In just one year, or two, the third party players will be more than motivated to generate the whole family of components available to WIN32 VCL. The current approach is creating the Delphi.NET compiler and letting the third party players recompile their existing Delphi code to .NET. It saves them the trouble of having to re-write existing Delphi code and besides the resulting assemblies will be accessible to any .NET language such as C#, Managed C++, VB.NET and Delphi.NET. What do you see as the flaw in this approach that re-writing the VCL to C++ will address? -- Leo Saguisag Delphi l10n engineer About the Borland newsgroups: http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/ "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi (Return Of The Jedi) Back to top Leo Saguisag (Borland) Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL Saulo I. Regis wrote: Quote: #1. As of today Prime Time was elected by Borland as a cross-platform IDE serving currently Java and C++; Key points being "as of today". The Java IDE was originally written in Delphi and then was slowly re-written to be the 100% Java IDE that it is today. The BDS IDE could very well follow the same path of evolution in which case we could go wherever the .NET Framework gets deployed i.e. if the BDS IDE gets re-written to be a pure .NET entity then we could theoretically take the BDS IDE to wherever in the future the .NET Framework gets ported to. Quote: #2. Your boss, Mr. Dale, refered to Prime Time, in a recent interview, as a potential IDE to hold all languages supported by Borland, including Delphi! Key word being *potential*. There is no assurance that this would happen; indeed, unless there is a significant market for a Delphi plugin in Prime Time I sincerely doubt we could justify the amount of engineering effort needed to do this. Delphi already works perfectly fine inside BDS. Quote: Which others platforms will Borland target next? Will be the same done targeting Linux? I am not in any position to comment on this, sorry. I am not high enough on the totem pole to be a decision maker on the future direction of Borland's technologies and even if I had any idea I probably could not publicly give out any information due to employment non-disclosure agreements. Quote: Is it more economical to Borland, at this point, to create native Delphi compilers for each targeted platform OR is it more economical to re-write VCL in an already vastly developed cross-platform language like C++? I personally think the current course we have chosen is more economical; by investing our efforts in creating a Delphi.NET compiler and tweaking the existing Win32 VCL code to work with .NET we have saved ourselves the enormous amount of time and effort needed to take the existing VCL code and re-write it in C++, we get to reuse the existing VCL code which is already written in Delphi, and by creating CLS compliant .NET assemblies in VCL.NET we have opened VCL.NET for use with other .NET languages like Managed C++, VB.NET and C#. I do realize that at this point in time this approach has effectively locked VCL.NET into Windows because AFAIK only Microsoft has a currently viable implementation of the .NET Framework. On the other hand, as cross-platform ports of the .NET Framework (like Mono) mature, then we can take VCL.NET to those platforms with minimal effort since (theoretically) no re-writing will be required. DISCLAIMER: I should point out that all of the statements I have made here are my own and should not be interpreted as an "official" response from Borland. :-) -- Leo Saguisag Delphi l10n engineer About the Borland newsgroups: http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/ "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi (Return Of The Jedi) Back to top Leroy Casterline Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL "Leo Saguisag (Borland)" <lsaguisag_at_borland_dot_com> wrote: Quote: I personally think the current course we have chosen is more economical; by investing our efforts in creating a Delphi.NET compiler and tweaking the existing Win32 VCL code to work with .NET we have saved ourselves the enormous amount of time and effort needed to take the existing VCL code and re-write it in C++, we get to reuse the existing VCL code which is already written in Delphi, and by creating CLS compliant .NET assemblies in VCL.NET we have opened VCL.NET for use with other .NET languages like Managed C++, VB.NET and C#. I agree and was very happy to see Borland taking this approach. When I do ultimately have to write code for .NET this makes my transition easier and less expensive. Now, if only BCB makes it into the world of BDS... Back to top Saulo I. Regis Guest Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: VCL.NET and C++ VCL "Leo Saguisag (Borland)" <lsaguisag_at_borland_dot_com> escreveu na mensagem news:4176e34c$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Saulo I. Regis wrote: Is it more economical to Borland, at this point, to create native Delphi compilers for each targeted platform OR is it more economical to re-write VCL in an already vastly developed cross-platform language like C++? I personally think the current course we have chosen is more economical; by investing our efforts in creating a Delphi.NET compiler and tweaking the existing Win32 VCL code to work with .NET we have saved ourselves the enormous amount of time and effort needed to take the existing VCL code and re-write it in C++, we get to reuse the existing VCL code which is already written in Delphi, and by creating CLS compliant .NET assemblies in VCL.NET we have opened VCL.NET for use with other .NET languages like Managed C++, VB.NET and C#. I do realize that at this point in time this approach has effectively locked VCL.NET into Windows because AFAIK only Microsoft has a currently viable implementation of the .NET Framework. On the other hand, as cross-platform ports of the .NET Framework (like Mono) mature, then we can take VCL.NET to those platforms with minimal effort since (theoretically) no re-writing will be required. DISCLAIMER: I should point out that all of the statements I have made here are my own and should not be interpreted as an "official" response from Borland. Well Leo, with all respect to you, I must tell you that your description of the cross-platform concept adopted by Borland recalls me SciFi. Reading your post I remember of 1984 George Orwell book and the "double thinking" concept described there. If you recall the author described this concept as saying things like: "We make the war to guarantee the peace".... and others interesting "concepts" like that one. I would translate all you've written in a single new Borland slogan: "We are locking you in a single platform because we want you to be cross-platform" ! Please, don't take it personal! You described the situation in a honest and clear way and I'm grateful to you for that! I'm criticizing THE MESSAGE, not you! 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