BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++?          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Randall Parker Guest Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:19 pm    Post subject: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? So what does MS not support from C++ in Managed C++? Is it true that they do not support templates? Back to top Harold Howe [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? Randall Parker wrote: Quote: So what does MS not support from C++ in Managed C++? Is it true that they do not support templates? Yes, you can use template class and functions from within managed code. However, you cannot create a managed template class and expect to be able to export that for other languages, such as C3 and VB. h^2 Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? "Harold Howe [TeamB]" <hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Yes, you can use template class and functions from within managed code. Are you sure about that? One of the speakers addressed a similar question and said that Managed code didn't have templated. Gambit Back to top Edward Diener Guest Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? Harold Howe [TeamB] wrote: Quote: Randall Parker wrote: So what does MS not support from C++ in Managed C++? Is it true that they do not support templates? Yes, you can use template class and functions from within managed code. However, you cannot create a managed template class and expect to be able to export that for other languages, such as C3 and VB. I am pretty sure you are wrong Harold. MS is adding their own version of templates to C#, and therefore probably managed C++, but it is different from C++ templates and it is called Generics. Back to top Harold Howe [TeamB] Guest Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote: Quote: Are you sure about that? One of the speakers addressed a similar question and said that Managed code didn't have templated. I don't know. JT told me about some of Herb Sutter's articles where he explains how they need to fix managed C++. I thought he said that using containers and STL templates from managed C++ would be possible, but maybe I was spacing off. I am assuming that Borland is going to focus on fixed, 'Herb Sutter' managed c++, and not the bastardized version of managed C++ as it exists today. H^2 Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? "Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" <gambit47.no.spam (AT) no (DOT) spam.yahoo.com> wrote Quote: Are you sure about that? One of the speakers addressed a similar question and said that Managed code didn't have templated. I just saw this at MSDN: "The .NET platform doesn't support generic programming yet, but managed C++ programmers can still take advantage of the template mechanisms available in normal C++ to a certain extent. Of course, this means you can only use them as internal aids to your managed C++ implementation and cannot expose them to other .NET languages, but they are still useful for a few tricks." Gambit Back to top G.B.R. Guest Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? "Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" <gambit47.no.spam (AT) no (DOT) spam.yahoo.com> wrote Quote: "Harold Howe [TeamB]" <hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com> wrote in message news:3faad97c (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Yes, you can use template class and functions from within managed code. Are you sure about that? One of the speakers addressed a similar question and said that Managed code didn't have templated. You cannot have managed class templates, but you can mix managed and unmanaged code in a single source. You can instantiate unmanaged templates in managed classes, and v.v. As to the managed classes there are lots of limitations intended to make them uniform in all .net languages. Back to top Edward Diener Guest Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? G.B.R. wrote: Quote: "Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" <gambit47.no.spam (AT) no (DOT) spam.yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3faadb98$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... "Harold Howe [TeamB]" <hhowe (AT) bcbdev (DOT) com> wrote in message news:3faad97c (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Yes, you can use template class and functions from within managed code. Are you sure about that? One of the speakers addressed a similar question and said that Managed code didn't have templated. You cannot have managed class templates, but you can mix managed and unmanaged code in a single source. You can instantiate unmanaged templates in managed classes, and v.v. Good to know. Thanks ! That means one can use instantiated STL containers and smart pointers in a single source which is part of an assembly. I did realize that instantiated templates can not be part of a CLR interface, but I didn't think one could use instantiated templates except in non-managed code modules. I am glad I am wrong. Back to top Randall Parker Guest Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? Maybe the reason MS is lagging on template support is that they don't allow some operations in managed C++ that template code routinely does. I can't imagine their C++ compiler front-end for managed C++ is incapable of parsing the template code. Edward Diener wrote: Quote: I am pretty sure you are wrong Harold. MS is adding their own version of templates to C#, and therefore probably managed C++, but it is different from C++ templates and it is called Generics. Back to top G.B.R. Guest Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? "Randall Parker" <STOPtechiepundit (AT) EVILfuturePOXpunditSPAM (DOT) com> wrote in message news:3fac929c$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: Maybe the reason MS is lagging on template support is that they don't allow some operations in managed C++ that template code routinely does. I can't imagine their C++ compiler front-end for managed C++ is incapable of parsing the template code. There is, of course, no problem with parsing or compiling template code. Latest VC compiler is quite capable of compiling the most convoluted templates. The real problem, or better say two problems are related to .net itself. There is no way of compiling templates to MSIL to be supported by CLR. Even exported templates are not supported by a majority of compilers, which is a simpler task. Problem number two is that the other languages in ..net do not have similar concept and it cannot be simply introduced there, because all other c++ rules regarding overloading, lookup, etc., all the complexities of c++ would need to be dragged into the other languages. The end result of such metamorphosis would be several c++ languages, each with its own syntax That's why they are working on a generic solution that would circumvent those two problems, which I believe will be rather weak taking into account those constraints. Back to top G.B.R. Guest Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:38 am    Post subject: P.S. .net generics You can find a lot of interesting information about the implementation of generics in .net here: http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=9215d7ac.0311081811.2eea7d75%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.c%252B%252B.moderated It looks like there are some good ideas, but it also looks like it's significantly less powerful (in expressiveness and performance) approach. Back to top Marcelo R. Lopez, Jr. Guest Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? Clap..Clap...Clap... Excellent ! Just when I thought .NET had swallowed one more programmer, a voice of reason comes out. Quote: There is, of course, no problem with parsing or compiling template code. Latest VC compiler is quite capable of compiling the most convoluted templates. The real problem, or better say two problems are related to ..net itself. There is no way of compiling templates to MSIL to be supported by CLR. Even exported templates are not supported by a majority of compilers, which is a simpler task. Problem number two is that the other languages in .net do not have similar concept and it cannot be simply introduced there, because all other c++ rules regarding overloading, lookup, etc., all the complexities of c++ would need to be dragged into the other languages. The end result of such metamorphosis would be several c++ languages, each with its own syntax That's why they are working on a generic solution that would circumvent those two problems, which I believe will be rather weak taking into account those constraints. Back to top Randall Parker Guest Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? So Microsoft is making a new development environment that is incompatible with C++. My mind boggles. The vendor of the most popular OS has decided to reject the most popular programming language as obsolete. G.B.R. wrote: Quote: There is, of course, no problem with parsing or compiling template code. Latest VC compiler is quite capable of compiling the most convoluted templates. The real problem, or better say two problems are related to .net itself. There is no way of compiling templates to MSIL to be supported by CLR. Even exported templates are not supported by a majority of compilers, which is a simpler task. Problem number two is that the other languages in .net do not have similar concept and it cannot be simply introduced there, because all other c++ rules regarding overloading, lookup, etc., all the complexities of c++ would need to be dragged into the other languages. The end result of such metamorphosis would be several c++ languages, each with its own syntax That's why they are working on a generic solution that would circumvent those two problems, which I believe will be rather weak taking into account those constraints. Back to top G.B.R. Guest Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:43 pm    Post subject: Re: What C++ syntax breaks on DOT NET Managed C++? "Randall Parker" <STOPtechiepundit (AT) EVILfuturePOXpunditSPAM (DOT) com> wrote in message news:3faffeff$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: So Microsoft is making a new development environment that is incompatible with C++. My mind boggles. The vendor of the most popular OS has decided to reject the most popular programming language as obsolete. I wouldn't say incompatible, the concern is rather about the extensions. Non-managed c++ implemetation is pretty much standard conforming, if you can stay in the ANSI boundaries, which most people probably won't. Managed c++ is definitely very much different and is still in a flux. Herb Sutter claims they're trying to make new managed c++ as painless for developers as possible (read here http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=9ceoov827fh0e3k5bggr093a634a7be05m%404ax.com&rnum=4) It still remains to be seen what they will do to the language. But the solution I've seen they chose for generics, doesn't impress me at all. 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