BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  What is going on ??          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Michael Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:55 pm    Post subject: What is going on ?? What the h*ll is going on with Borland. They seem to be shutting the door on a large majority of their existing customers. Just reading through some of the postings on here and elsewhere shows how strong a customer base they have for C++ Builder yet they blindly turn their back on us. Excuse me, but only the dumbest animal turns its back on the food trough and walks away into the desert. First we have Builder X with no VCL support or GUI development and now we are told that Builder is to be dropped. Was it not the customers buying Delphi and then C++ Builder that made Borland what it is today. By dropping C++ builder they are turning a vast majority of their existing customer base away from them. Don't they get this. Are they really that dumb. I don't want to learn a new language (#NET or anything else) when C++ will suffice my needs. I don't do Delphi (Hated Pascal) and don't want to waste lots of time and effort learning a new language only developed to generate more income for M. Yes I want cross platform development but in C++. All I ask is a bug free C++ Builder IDE which is up to date with the latest operating systems (Linux, XP etc) and the latest trends (Skins, themes, etc) (Oh yes, and its supported). I like VCL and C++ Builders intuitive development environment. This is what made Borland's products such a revolution. Now everything is to be thrown away on a mislead marketing crusade. All the work, code, customers to be thrown away. We are left to feel like dirty little urchins because we bought and support a product which is too lowly to be part of Borland's new product line up. That's right (Builder X was developed for bigger better corporate customers) we (The people who made Borland and have supported their products for many years despite all those damned bugs) are now, not good enough for Borland. But hold on a moment. Stop the press. There's going to be an announcement on the 15th December. Oh golly. The anticipation. I can't wait. Or can I... Its only my total dislike of anything microshaft that has kept me using Borland's products this long but when they treat their customers so badly, who am I kidding. The writings on the wall. It has been for some time now. Guess its time to think the unthinkable. Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? "Michael" <michael.dibble (AT) dca-design (DOT) com> wrote Quote: What the h*ll is going on with Borland. The results of internal changes over time. Or so they said at BorCon a couple of months ago. Quote: They seem to be shutting the door on a large majority of their existing customers. BCB hardly constituted as a "majority". JBuilder is the big money-maker for Borland, with Delphi as #2 following JBuilder. BCB does still generate considerable amounts of revenue, but I would not call it a "majority" product. Otherwise it would not be neglected as much as it has been over the years. Quote: First we have Builder X with no VCL support or GUI development CBX was a completely new product for a completely different market. It was not going to be a BCB successor. Quote: and now we are told that Builder is to be dropped. No, we are not being told that. If anything, we have been told the opposite - that there is a strong possibility of BCB being integrated into the next (not the one that was just released) Delphi IDE as a new personality alongside Pascal and C#. We were even shown a working demo of it at BorCon. The Borland developers even stated publically at BorCon that they all want to see a new BCB version released. It is upper management that is keeping everything stalled. But we have been promised a definate answer by December 15th as to what will actually happen to BCB in the future - whether it will be carried over to a personality in the Delphi IDE, or finally dropped completely and permanantly. We don't have that answer yet. Gambit Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Tom|420 wrote: Quote: Now you got my curiosity. I didn't even know Delphi 2005 was out, and sure didn't know there was a plan to get C# in there. It is in there. Quote: Did they remove C#Builder all at once and moved the language into Delphi? The IDE was already the same (the D8 IDE being an evolution of the C#Builder IDE, and D2005 being an evolution of both), code named Galileo. Borland has already said they were using D/W32, D/.NET and C# in one IDE internally. Quote: In an earlier thread (there have been dozen on that subject lately) someone mentionned that maybe C++ could be added to Delphi 2005. That was before it was released. I hoped that was true. There is supposed to be news on Dec 15. It was quite clear that D2005 woulde be released before that. AFAIK, C++Builder in the Diamondback IDE (codename of D2005) was demoed at BorCon. The decision is not known, though. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer." -- Farmers' Almanac, 1978. Back to top Tom|420 Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote: Quote: BCB hardly constituted as a "majority". JBuilder is the big money-maker for Borland, with Delphi as #2 following JBuilder. BCB does still generate considerable amounts of revenue, but I would not call it a "majority" product. Otherwise it would not be neglected as much as it has been over the years. You surprised me here. I didn't know JBuilder was more popular than Delphi, although I knew Delphi was much more popular than C++Builder. Quote: No, we are not being told that. If anything, we have been told the opposite - that there is a strong possibility of BCB being integrated into the next (not the one that was just released) Delphi IDE as a new personality alongside Pascal and C#. We were even shown a working demo of it at BorCon. The Borland developers even stated publically at BorCon that they all want to see a new BCB version released. It is upper management that is keeping everything stalled. But we have been promised a definate answer by December 15th as to what will actually happen to BCB in the future - whether it will be carried over to a personality in the Delphi IDE, or finally dropped completely and permanantly. We don't have that answer yet. Now you got my curiosity. I didn't even know Delphi 2005 was out, and sure didn't know there was a plan to get C# in there. Did they remove C#Builder all at once and moved the language into Delphi? If so I don't see why C++ can't get it's way in there. I mean, when you put two languages into one product, you can put ten. In an earlier thread (there have been dozen on that subject lately) someone mentionned that maybe C++ could be added to Delphi 2005. That was before it was released. I hoped that was true. If C++ is included in the next release of Delphi, when can we expect that release? Normally, what is the frequency of Delphi releases? Once a year? Once every other year? Remy, you are one of the most objective and realist here regarding that issue, I trust your opinion on that matter. I might be just a hobbyist (as opposed to a profesional developer) regarding BCB (most of my profesional work being web development -- HTML+PHP+MySQL -- never got any real assignment with desktop programing) I still don't see myself learning the Microsoft development tools. Believe me, I've tried. There was once an open source project developed in MSVC which I hide ideas for some modifications, but I never got to understand the most fundamental stuff of the project, never got close enough to find where my changes where to be made. BCB always been my desktop programing tool, and the future of it is important to me. Turbo C++ was my first real development tool, BCB was just a logical follow up. Learning a few months back about that uncertain future made me worry. And I still wonder about what I do after Dec 15th if Borland decision is on the opposite direction than our hopes: Will I move on, or will I still use BCB 6 SP4 for another few years? Will I complete my current projects on BCB and start any new one on a different tool, or still start new projects on BCB, knowing that eventually those project will either need to be ported or die? So Remy, what is the future, in your opinion? Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Vesty wrote: Quote: Everyone is on board with this idea - except the top executables. Lol... I think you've been working too hard Remy . LOL! I had to look twice to see it. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names." - John F. Kennedy (1917-1963) Back to top Leo Saguisag (Borland) Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Tom|420 wrote: Quote: Now you got my curiosity. I didn't even know Delphi 2005 was out, and sure didn't know there was a plan to get C# in there. Delphi 2005 was released not too long ago and supports Delphi for .NET, Delphi for Win32 and C#. You can read about it on the main Borland website or feel free to browse around the Delphi newsgroups. Quote: If C++ is included in the next release of Delphi, when can we expect that release? Normally, what is the frequency of Delphi releases? Once a year? Once every other year? The actual length of each product cycle varies depending on the extent of the next release. -- Leo Saguisag Delphi l10n engineer About the Borland newsgroups: http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/ "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi (Return Of The Jedi) Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? "Tom|420" <tom420.duhamel (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Did they remove C#Builder all at once and moved the language into Delphi? Looks like it. Quote: If so I don't see why C++ can't get it's way in there. I mean, when you put two languages into one product, you can put ten. That is exactly the current argument. From a technical standpoint, there is nothing stopping Borland from putting C++ into the latest Delphi IDE. They have already done it, and made it WORK, in the demo that was showed. Besides, BCB has always used the Delphi IDE all along anyway, so from the customer standpoint, that is great because now we would finally get an updated IDE for C++ with all of the bug fixes, new features, latest VCL, etc. that Delphi has enjoyed during the past several years that BCB never got. Everyone is on board with this idea - except the top executables. They are holding everyone else up. Why? Who knows. Quote: In an earlier thread (there have been dozen on that subject lately) someone mentionned that maybe C++ could be added to Delphi 2005. That was before it was released. I hoped that was true. Too soon. Maybe in Delphi 2005 1/2 or 2006 or something. We won't know for sure until December 15th. Quote: If C++ is included in the next release of Delphi, when can we expect that release? During the normal Delphi timeline. Quote: Normally, what is the frequency of Delphi releases? Once a year? Once every other year? Cerrtainly once a year. Maybe twice a year. Quote: I might be just a hobbyist (as opposed to a profesional developer) regarding BCB How do you think I got started? ;-) Quote: Learning a few months back about that uncertain future made me worry. And I still wonder about what I do after Dec 15th if Borland decision is on the opposite direction than our hopes: Will I move on, or will I still use BCB 6 SP4 for another few years? Will I complete my current projects on BCB and start any new one on a different tool, or still start new projects on BCB, knowing that eventually those project will either need to be ported or die? So Remy, what is the future, in your opinion? I think Borland's programmers will finally convince the executives to let C++ make it into a future Delphi release. Borland would be too stupid not to do that. It makes the most sense to do from all kinds of ways you look at the issue. C++ gets an updated IDE and up-to-date libraries. It fits just fine into the current technology, and in doing so will automatically gain all of the current features and all of the future updates. And people want it!!! Gambit Back to top Vesty Guest Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote: Quote: Everyone is on board with this idea - except the top executables. Lol... I think you've been working too hard Remy . -- Vesty. Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Tom|420 wrote: Quote: Remy Lebeau (TeamB) wrote: BCB hardly constituted as a "majority". JBuilder is the big money-maker for Borland, with Delphi as #2 following JBuilder. BCB does still generate considerable amounts of revenue, but I would not call it a "majority" product. Otherwise it would not be neglected as much as it has been over the years. You surprised me here. I didn't know JBuilder was more popular than Delphi, although I knew Delphi was much more popular than C++Builder. Actually in the past 2 quarters they have flip flopped again and Delphi is the larger revenue generator, but both are about the same depending on the release schedule. -- Jeff Overcash (TeamB) (Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. (RAH) Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Michael wrote: Quote: What the h*ll is going on with Borland. They seem to be shutting the door on a large majority of their existing customers. If you think C++ is a majority of the customers these days or even in the past decade you are sadly mistaken. It's been over a decade since the C++ was a major revenue generator at Borland. That doesn't mean they shouldn't care about the C++ line, only trying to keep things in perspective. -- Jeff Overcash (TeamB) (Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. (RAH) Back to top Kevin Guest Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote: Quote: You surprised me here. I didn't know JBuilder was more popular than Delphi, although I knew Delphi was much more popular than C++Builder. Actually in the past 2 quarters they have flip flopped again and Delphi is the larger revenue generator, but both are about the same depending on the release schedule. I think Java has taken a bit of a hit lately. That's probably why Delphi is back on top. Back when Java had more hype behind it JBuilder was clearly king. Delphi is Borland's mainstay product. Cheers, Kevin. Back to top Jeff Overcash (TeamB) Guest Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: What is going on ?? Kevin wrote: Quote: Jeff Overcash (TeamB) wrote: You surprised me here. I didn't know JBuilder was more popular than Delphi, although I knew Delphi was much more popular than C++Builder. Actually in the past 2 quarters they have flip flopped again and Delphi is the larger revenue generator, but both are about the same depending on the release schedule. I think Java has taken a bit of a hit lately. That's probably why Delphi is back on top. Back when Java had more hype behind it JBuilder was clearly king. Delphi is Borland's mainstay product. Actually JBuilder never got too far ahead (based when the quarterly reports broke out the products differently), but both products are still growing in revenue. -- Jeff Overcash (TeamB) (Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. 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