BorlandTalk.com Borland discussion newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  What is the real story on BCB? Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next          BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Goran Ekstrom Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:01 pm    Post subject: What is the real story on BCB? What I mean is, why is it that BCB seem to be considered a second rate product by Borland? Is it just customer base? Is it that C++ is too "complicated" for "ordinary" programmers and not seen as a mainstream language? Don´t know Delphi or C# good enough to make an initiated comparison of the languages but it get the feeling that C++ is regarded as a language for "serious men in white coates and no social skills". If I where to write a database application in C++, Delphi or C#, is there really any considerable difference in time-to-market, provided that I know the language good enough? Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? At 00:01:33, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: Quote: What I mean is, why is it that BCB seem to be considered a second rate product by Borland? Where did you get that idea? BCB is supposed to be a first class citizen in the BDS IDE. But currently, there seem to be some instabilites or bugs that make it not ready for release yet. So the final C++ personality for the product will be released a little later. If Borland considered it not so important, they would probably just have released it, buggy or not. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." - Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841-1935) Back to top Remy Lebeau (TeamB) Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? "Goran Ekstrom" <goek!removeantispam!@telia.com> wrote Quote: Is it that C++ is too "complicated" for "ordinary" programmers and not seen as a mainstream language? Hardly. C/C++ is one of the most widely used programming languages in the world, and amongst the most powerful and flexible. Gambit Back to top Goran Ekstrom Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? Thats not really what I meant. Compare the number of Delphi versions released to BCB. Only will BCB users get XP-style VCL now for example. BCB 5 came in 2000 I beleive. Checked out BCB 6 but the general consensus seemed to be "if you don´t fancy learning a new set of bugs, stick to BCB5". Actually, I´m very excited about 2006 and look forward to using it. "Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]" <velthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> skrev i meddelandet news:xn0e9wu1waittw010-velthuis (AT) www (DOT) teamb.com... Quote: At 00:01:33, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: What I mean is, why is it that BCB seem to be considered a second rate product by Borland? Where did you get that idea? BCB is supposed to be a first class citizen in the BDS IDE. But currently, there seem to be some instabilites or bugs that make it not ready for release yet. So the final C++ personality for the product will be released a little later. If Borland considered it not so important, they would probably just have released it, buggy or not. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." - Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841-1935) Back to top Goran Ekstrom Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? Exactly, that was what I thought. So even more puzzling that Delphi seems to be Borlands flagship. Seem to recall that the Delphi/BCB user ration was 80/20? False or true? "Remy Lebeau (TeamB)" <no.spam (AT) no (DOT) spam.com> skrev i meddelandet news:437e5f96$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: "Goran Ekstrom" <goek!removeantispam!@telia.com> wrote in message news:437e5d10 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Is it that C++ is too "complicated" for "ordinary" programmers and not seen as a mainstream language? Hardly. C/C++ is one of the most widely used programming languages in the world, and amongst the most powerful and flexible. Gambit Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? At 00:22:26, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: Quote: Thats not really what I meant. Compare the number of Delphi versions released to BCB. Only will BCB users get XP-style VCL now for example. BCB 5 came in 2000 I beleive. Checked out BCB 6 but the general consensus seemed to be "if you don´t fancy learning a new set of bugs, stick to BCB5". I guess that the new BCB2006 will use the same VCL as Delphi 2006. It should be like, or better than, Delphi 2005's VCL, which is fully theme-enabled. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members." -- Groucho Marx Back to top Dennis Jones Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? "Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]" <velthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: At 00:01:33, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: What I mean is, why is it that BCB seem to be considered a second rate product by Borland? Where did you get that idea? Whenever people complain about Borland's lack of effort on the BCB product line, many people here (Team B'ers, in particular) are very fond of saying something along the lines of, "BCB sales is not a significant portion of Borland's revenue stream (compared to Delphi)." That kind of response certainly gives an impression of apathy toward BCB. Furthermore, just to prove Borland's attitude toward BCB, they killed it! (surely, we haven't already forgotten?) If that's doesn't suggest that Borland thought of BCB as a "second rate product" (especially at that time), I don't know what does. Thankfully, Borland decided to resurrect BCB (though only after the BCB community went berserk) and has since claimed a renewed commitment to the BCB product line. So, while it might not be a "second rate product" today, there is no doubt in my mind that it once was. - Dennis Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? At 00:24:56, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: Quote: Exactly, that was what I thought. So even more puzzling that Delphi seems to be Borlands flagship. Well... There is no direct competition for the Delphi language, while there are MANY other C++ compilers around. I think BCB is especially popular among those who like RAD development for at least part of their code. But there will always be those who either think they can never go wrong with MS products, or simply dislike RAD (see it as a toy), or think that they need something that will compile to Linux, Solaris, Mac etc. and probably use something like GPP. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "Don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love ." -- Woody Allen, From 'Annie Hall' 1977. Back to top Goran Ekstrom Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? Very nice summarized. "Dennis Jones" <nospam (AT) nospam (DOT) com> skrev i meddelandet news:437e64e8$1 (AT) newsgroups (DOT) borland.com... Quote: "Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]" <velthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:xn0e9wu1waittw010-velthuis (AT) www (DOT) teamb.com... At 00:01:33, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: What I mean is, why is it that BCB seem to be considered a second rate product by Borland? Where did you get that idea? Whenever people complain about Borland's lack of effort on the BCB product line, many people here (Team B'ers, in particular) are very fond of saying something along the lines of, "BCB sales is not a significant portion of Borland's revenue stream (compared to Delphi)." That kind of response certainly gives an impression of apathy toward BCB. Furthermore, just to prove Borland's attitude toward BCB, they killed it! (surely, we haven't already forgotten?) If that's doesn't suggest that Borland thought of BCB as a "second rate product" (especially at that time), I don't know what does. Thankfully, Borland decided to resurrect BCB (though only after the BCB community went berserk) and has since claimed a renewed commitment to the BCB product line. So, while it might not be a "second rate product" today, there is no doubt in my mind that it once was. - Dennis Back to top Goran Ekstrom Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? Since we are in cppbuilder-land, maybe I can stick my neck out and say that it seem to me that "Delphi is the language of choise for people that just can´t cope with the dry, academic tone of Strostrup". Is that the basis for the success of Delphi over C++ or is it a chicken-and-egg situation? "Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]" <velthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> skrev i meddelandet news:xn0e9wuqtbiw8m018-velthuis (AT) www (DOT) teamb.com... Quote: At 00:24:56, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: Exactly, that was what I thought. So even more puzzling that Delphi seems to be Borlands flagship. Well... There is no direct competition for the Delphi language, while there are MANY other C++ compilers around. I think BCB is especially popular among those who like RAD development for at least part of their code. But there will always be those who either think they can never go wrong with MS products, or simply dislike RAD (see it as a toy), or think that they need something that will compile to Linux, Solaris, Mac etc. and probably use something like GPP. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "Don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love ." -- Woody Allen, From 'Annie Hall' 1977. Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? At 00:34:55, 19.11.2005, Dennis Jones wrote: Quote: Whenever people complain about Borland's lack of effort on the BCB product line, many people here (Team B'ers, in particular) are very fond of saying something along the lines of, "BCB sales is not a significant portion of Borland's revenue stream (compared to Delphi)." That kind of response certainly gives an impression of apathy toward BCB. I don't think so. I think that merely states a fact. It does not necessarily mean that Borland does not love its C++ customers, just that fewer C++ customers love Borland than Delphi customers. I still think the number is significant enough to Borland, otherwise they would not have spent lots of dollars on developing a successor to BCB6. Borland is not charity, so they must see a ROI in that. Delphi is probably a bigger seller for Borland because it doesn't have any other Delphi compilers to compete with, and it can be entirely suited to the product and its frameworks. There are however many competing C++ compilers, and the language is standardized. That has advantages, especially WRT portability, but not necessarily for things like RAD or some of the other technologies around. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good teacher." -- Flannery O'Connor (1925-1964) Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? At 00:34:55, 19.11.2005, Dennis Jones wrote: Quote: there is no doubt in my mind that it once was. Oh, that could very well be, indeed. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "We had gay burglars the other night. They broke in and rearranged the furniture." -- Robin Williams. Back to top Goran Ekstrom Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? But ROI is very much about time-to-market. If C++ was considered "superior" to Delphi in time-to-productivity for a novice, the tables should have been turned since all the other bells and whistles like IDE and database support is in effect language independent. "Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]" <velthuis (AT) gmail (DOT) com> skrev i meddelandet news:xn0e9wv07bwj17019-velthuis (AT) www (DOT) teamb.com... Quote: At 00:34:55, 19.11.2005, Dennis Jones wrote: Whenever people complain about Borland's lack of effort on the BCB product line, many people here (Team B'ers, in particular) are very fond of saying something along the lines of, "BCB sales is not a significant portion of Borland's revenue stream (compared to Delphi)." That kind of response certainly gives an impression of apathy toward BCB. I don't think so. I think that merely states a fact. It does not necessarily mean that Borland does not love its C++ customers, just that fewer C++ customers love Borland than Delphi customers. I still think the number is significant enough to Borland, otherwise they would not have spent lots of dollars on developing a successor to BCB6. Borland is not charity, so they must see a ROI in that. Delphi is probably a bigger seller for Borland because it doesn't have any other Delphi compilers to compete with, and it can be entirely suited to the product and its frameworks. There are however many competing C++ compilers, and the language is standardized. That has advantages, especially WRT portability, but not necessarily for things like RAD or some of the other technologies around. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good teacher." -- Flannery O'Connor (1925-1964) Back to top Chris Gordon-Smith Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] wrote: Quote: At 00:01:33, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: What I mean is, why is it that BCB seem to be considered a second rate product by Borland? Where did you get that idea? The idea comes primarily from a lack of commitment and strategy that was demonstrated over an extended period during which Borland released and dropped C++BuilderX, dropped Kylix, and allowed confusion and uncertainty to continue over the future of C++ Builder and VCL. Its a question of trust. It will take time to rebuild. -- Chris Gordon-Smith London http://www.simsoup.info Back to top Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] Guest Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: What is the real story on BCB? At 00:45:03, 19.11.2005, Goran Ekstrom wrote: Quote: Since we are in cppbuilder-land, maybe I can stick my neck out and say that it seem to me that "Delphi is the language of choise for people that just can´t cope with the dry, academic tone of Strostrup". In my case, that isn't it. Delphi is simply a language extremely well suited for RAD, a framework like the VCL and many other things which C++ can only emulate. And it is also one of the very few compiled languages I know which can do .NET and Win32 with almost the same code base. And I guess many Delphites are simply turned off by the sheer ugliness of much of the C++ code written (I know C++ code doesn't have to be, but it often is), and by the complexity of the language. -- Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] http://velthuis.homepage.t-online.de "Love is the answer - but while you're waiting for the answer sex raises some pretty good questions." -- Woody Allen Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         BorlandTalk.com Forum Index -> C++ Builder (Non-Technical) All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next Page 1 of 7   Jump to: Select a forum C++ Builder Newsgroups----------------C++ BuilderC++ Builder (ActiveX)C++ Builder (Announcements)C++ Builder (Command Line Tools)C++ Builder DatabasesC++ Builder Databases (ADO)C++ Builder Databases (Desktop)C++ Builder Databases (InterBase Express)C++ Builder Databases (Multi-Tier)C++ Builder Databases (SQL Servers)C++ Builder (Graphics)C++ Builder (IDE)C++ Builder (Internet)C++ Builder (Internet Socket)C++ Builder (Internet Web)C++ Builder (Jobs)C++ Builder (Language)C++ Builder (Language C++)C++ Builder (Compatibility with MFC)C++ Builder (Native API)C++ Builder (Non-Technical)C++ Builder (Students)C++ Builder (Third Party Tools)C++ Builder (Upgrade)C++ Builder (VCL)C++ Builder (VCL Components Usage)C++ Builder (VCL Components Development)C++ Builder (VCL Usage)C++ Builder (WinAPI)C++ Builder Installation Delphi Newsgroups----------------Delphi (General)Delphi ActiveX Controls UsageDelphi ActiveX Controls DevelopmentDelphi As400Delphi DatabasesDelphi Databases (ADO)Delphi Databases (dbExpress)Delphi Databases (Desktop)Delphi Databases (InterBase Express)Delphi Databases (Multi-Tier)Delphi Databases (SQL Servers)Delphi DeploymentDelphi GraphicsDelphi IDEDelphi InternationalizationDelphi InternetDelphi Internet Isapi-WebBrokerDelphi Internet WebSnapDelphi Internet WinsockDelphi JobsDelphi Language BASMDelphi Language ObjectPascalDelphi Model Driven Architecture (General)Delphi Model Driven Architecture (Third Party)Delphi MultimediaDelphi Native APIDelphi Non-TechnicalDelphi ObjectPascalDelphi OLE AutomationDelphi OO designDelphi OpenToolsAPIDelphi Reporting-ChartingDelphi RTLDelphi StudentsDelphi TeamSourceDelphi Thirdparty ToolsDelphi Thirdparty Tools (General)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (IntraWeb)Delphi Thirdparty Tools (RaveReports)Delphi UpgradeDelphi VCLDelphi VCL ComponentsDelphi VCL Components UsingDelphi VCL Components WritingDelphi WebServices SOAPDelphi WinAPIDelphi XMLDelphi Installationcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.misccomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.usagecomp.lang.pascal.delphi.components.writingcomp.lang.pascal.delphi.databasescomp.lang.pascal.delphi.misccomp.sources.delphi JBuilder Newsgroups----------------JBuilderJBuilder AnnouncementsJBuilder Applet IssuesJBuilder As400JBuilder CompilerJBuilder CORBA/RMIJBuilder DatabasesJBuilder DB SwingJBuilder DebuggerJBuilder DeploymentJBuilder DocumentationJBuilder EnterpriseJBuilder HandheldJBuilder IDEJBuilder JavaJBuilder JavaAPIJBuilder Java LanguageJBuilder Java SwingJBuilder Java BeansJBuilder Java Beans UsageJBuilder Java Beans DevelopmentJBuilder JBCLJBuilder JDataStoreJBuilder JobsJBuilder LinuxJBuilder MacintoshJBuilder & MobileSetJBuilder MultiLingual AppsJBuilder Non-TechnicalJBuilder OpenToolsJBuilder Servlets (JSP)JBuilder StudentsJBuilder Team DevelopmentJBuilder Thirdparty ToolsJBuilder UpgradeJBuilder Installation InterBase Newsgroups----------------InterBaseInterBase Bug DiscussionInterBase GeneralInterBase IBConsoleInterBase OpenSourceInterBase ReplicationInterBase SQLInterBase ThirdpartyInterBase Installation Miscellaneous Borland Newsgroups----------------AppCenterAppServerEnteraVisiBroker  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.