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John Kaster (Borland)
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David Erbas-White
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 Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: Re: What’s New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
| Quote: | What’s New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes
Read the highlights of the latest features of C++Builder 2006, part of
Borland Developer Studio 2006
http://bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,33453,00.html
Sorry I'm just posting the announcement now. Just got this posted right
before I left for my flight home from Tokyo.
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Excellent article, and makes me want to install BDS 2006 right away
(though I won't, because I need to finish a current support project
before getting diverted -- I have the product, just haven't installed it
yet).
Might I humbly suggest that this is the kind of article that should have
been posted the day the product was announced as RTM, rather than four
months later???
David Erbas-White |
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Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB]
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: What’s New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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David Erbas-White wrote:
| Quote: | Might I humbly suggest that this is the kind of article that should have
been posted the day the product was announced as RTM, rather than four
months later???
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Note that I agree with you, but I wonder if this press release explains
the timing. There seems to be some confusion about when the product was
released. Was it only available to pre-orders until today? Or is this
announcement only about non-English versions of the software?
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060307/20060307005223.html?.v=1
--
Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB] |
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David Erbas-White
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: What’s New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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Gillmer J. Derge [TeamB] wrote:
| Quote: | David Erbas-White wrote:
Might I humbly suggest that this is the kind of article that should
have been posted the day the product was announced as RTM, rather than
four months later???
Note that I agree with you, but I wonder if this press release explains
the timing. There seems to be some confusion about when the product was
released. Was it only available to pre-orders until today? Or is this
announcement only about non-English versions of the software?
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060307/20060307005223.html?.v=1
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If this is for real, the marketing department should be taken out and
maimed (note to the humor-impaired: this is a joke, meant as sarcasm).
The product has been orderable since November/December, has been
delivering (including the C++ Builder personality) since January, and if
they JUST issued their press release about it, there really isn't much
more to say about the Borland marketing folks...
David Erbas-White
P.S. In conjunction with the 'new features' announcement just posted
(that I initially referred to) and this statement, I TRULY have to
question Borland's competence -- I stand in awe of a company that is
this clueless that still is solvent. |
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John Kaster (Borland)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: What’s New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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David Erbas-White wrote:
| Quote: | Might I humbly suggest that this is the kind of article that should
have been posted the day the product was announced as RTM, rather
than four months later???
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The product wasn't generally available until this quarter, and the
campaign was planned to be focused on this quarter. Of course, there
was a minor distraction that came up for PR as well that delayed the
press release.
--
John Kaster http://blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: http://qc.borland.com
Get source: http://cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: http://ec.borland.com |
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David Erbas-White
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
OK, you've opened the door, I'll stroll on in...
| Quote: | David Erbas-White wrote:
Might I humbly suggest that this is the kind of article that should
have been posted the day the product was announced as RTM, rather
than four months later???
The product wasn't generally available until this quarter,
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Really? I've seen little/no evidence of this, unless you mean that the
C++ Builder personality wasn't released until early January (which was
two months ago, by the way). I've seen no complaints over the past
couple of months from people saying they had ordered or paid for the
product, and not received it. I've seen no statements from anyone in
Borland stating there was a shortage of product to ship. In fact, there
was a great deal made in December about the fact that the BDS2006
product could be bought using the Delphi SKU, but folks would only get a
'preview' of the C++ product (though they would be, and did, have a
download patch available in December -- which was last quarter, BTW --
to bring it up to the full release).
Thus, the product was ORDERABLE last quarter, many people RECEIVED it
last quarter, and those who didn't receive it last quarter received it
THIS quarter, but two months ago.
I would ALSO ask how in the world this statement of yours relates to MY
statement that the "what's new" article should have been available when
the product was RTM? Is this not one of the jobs of the company, to
provide timely, accurate information about the new product? Even if
Borland wanted to have external input to this, there were many people
who were beta testers for the product, so the argument that people
wouldn't be 'aware' of the new features holds no water.
I asked why this wasn't done when RTM occurred. You've replied with a
non-sequiter that the product wasn't "generally available" until this
quarter, which doesn't address my question in any normally accepted way,
shape, or form.
and the
| Quote: | campaign was planned to be focused on this quarter.
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Really? Why do you delineate "this quarter?" Why don't you just pick
"this year" or "this decade?" Any of them would make the same amount of
sense, as a product campaign (PARTICULARLY in the fast-moving technology
industry) generally starts PRIOR to product release, and tends to have
its major press DURING the product release -- not months later. So, in
order to satisfy management that everything is hunky-dory, you're trying
to say that the marketing campaign started during the same quarter as
the product was released, so everything went "to plan?" Are you
honestly saying that Borland has DECIDED to INTENTIONALLY delay product
marketing until two months after product shipment now? Please elucidate...
Of course, there
| Quote: | was a minor distraction that came up for PR as well that delayed the
press release.
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Really? And what was that? Oh, you mean the announcement that the IDE
division is up for sale? And just, exactly, how much press has this
received? Is this something that the marketing department has been
consumed with? If it was a last minute decision, how does it square
with all the work that should have been accomplished prior to product
release for the marketing campaign? If the decision was in process for
quite some time, then it doesn't bode well for management decisions for
anyone who would like to BUY the division, does it? I mean, after all,
if they can't plan for a proper marketing campaign for a major product,
and have plenty of warning, then they're not very competent, are they?
And if they had little notice, then they really didn't prepare very
well, did they?
John, this response is disgusting. I have a REAL difficult time with my
teenage daughter getting her to accept responsiblity -- everything is
always someone else's fault. To see Borland try and use the same
tactics is really ridiculous. I asked, humbly and politely, why normal,
common, industry practices weren't followed in putting together one of
the most BASIC of marketing tools -- the "what's new" that anyone buying
ANY new technology product needs in order to convince both themselves
and THEIR management that there is a good ROI on the product -- and what
was given was excuses.
I commend Borland for several of the purported advances in the new
product (which I haven't as yet used, because I'm too worried about
breaking my existing project). However, I've seen little REAL
commitment from Borland towards their user base. There was a lot of
talk over the past couple of years about how documentation would be
improved, yet in the new product the help/documentation is apparently
WORSE than in the past. Someone was commenting in another thread about
how they had submitted a bug report about BDS2006, and hadn't received a
reply yet -- I almost laughed when they expected an answer in the same
YEAR as the submitted bug report.
Oh, well, I guess I shouldn't have expected more...
David Erbas-White |
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David Erbas-White
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
| Quote: | David Erbas-White wrote:
Might I humbly suggest that this is the kind of article that should
have been posted the day the product was announced as RTM, rather
than four months later???
and the
campaign was planned to be focused on this quarter.
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Oh, now I see what you mean. Literally four minutes after my last post,
I received my (first) email advertisement telling me that BDS2006 was
available for C++ Builder users.
4 months after the general announcement...
3 months after Delphi users received the product...
2 months after C++ Builder users received the product...
1 month after the BDS2006 road shows...
It's all perfectly clear now -- the plan is to kill the product before a
buyer can be found...
David Erbas-White |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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David Erbas-White <derbas (AT) arachneering (DOT) com> writes:
| Quote: | Oh, now I see what you mean. Literally four minutes after my last
post, I received my (first) email advertisement telling me that
BDS2006 was available for C++ Builder users.
4 months after the general announcement...
3 months after Delphi users received the product...
2 months after C++ Builder users received the product...
1 month after the BDS2006 road shows...
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Marketing and documentation must be run by the same bunch of super competents.
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David Erbas-White
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:03 am Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
| Quote: | David Erbas-White wrote:
1 month after the BDS2006 road shows...
I guess Anders, David and I better cancel our travel plans, and I must
have hallucinated the Tokyo DevCon last week, and we better cancel
those Developer Days all over Europe, and the marketing events in APAC.
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I beg your pardon. I should have said "1 month after the START of the
BDS2006 road shows..."
| Quote: | And I guess it was USELESS to get those trial downloads posted in all
localized languages so people receiving those marketing emails could
try before they buy ...
Marketing is always ongoing. The goal was to market BCB2006 THIS
QUARTER because it was too late in the cycle for last quarter, and
that's happening.
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No, marketing is not always ongoing. There has been a dearth of
marketing to the C++ community for the past several years. There is no
rational way you can argue otherwise.
| Quote: | Disparaging comments like this only demonstrate unfamiliarity with both
marketing (it is NEVER a one-shot deal), and a publicly held company,
which tracks revenue by quarter. You are also unaware (could never be
made aware) of *all* the marketing activity we are doing worldwide and
only looking at one isolated instance.
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No, it is not unfamiliarity with how publicly held companies work (and
I've worked for some much bigger than Borland, both in 'labor' and
'management'). More successful companies aren't simply targeted on
quarter-by-quarter activities, they actually have longer term plans.
The often have 'staggered' activities to make the quarter-by-quarter
goals, but the whole 'quarter' obsession is relatively recent.
You're right, I'm unaware of all of the worldwide activity. I'm even
willing to bet it would be smarter for Borland to market to India than
the USA right now. But I can only go by the marketing that I see -- and
for the past several years, and continuing to the present moment, the
marketing that I see has been and is abysmal. I defy you to have users
of the group chime in and state otherwise.
I'm also (still) somewhat shocked that Borland's response to a customer
concern about there actions is 'defensive' rather than 'concerned'.
I've indicated several things that I think would help me, as a customer,
be less concerned about how Borland will continue to support a product I
rely on. Instead, I'm getting MORE of what I complained about in the
last note -- more "it's not our fault" and "we're doing our best" and
"you're not being fair".
Obviously, this is a problem with ME, rather than YOU, though --
because, as I said, this is the exact response I get from my teenage
kids... <G>
| Quote: | But go ahead and shoot those arrows, because we're not standing
anywhere near the target you're shooting at ;)
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If only you knew my actual background as an archer, you wouldn't be so
complacent... <G>
David Erbas-White |
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John Kaster (Borland)
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:03 am Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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David Erbas-White wrote:
| Quote: | 1 month after the BDS2006 road shows...
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I guess Anders, David and I better cancel our travel plans, and I must
have hallucinated the Tokyo DevCon last week, and we better cancel
those Developer Days all over Europe, and the marketing events in APAC.
And I guess it was USELESS to get those trial downloads posted in all
localized languages so people receiving those marketing emails could
try before they buy ...
Marketing is always ongoing. The goal was to market BCB2006 THIS
QUARTER because it was too late in the cycle for last quarter, and
that's happening.
Disparaging comments like this only demonstrate unfamiliarity with both
marketing (it is NEVER a one-shot deal), and a publicly held company,
which tracks revenue by quarter. You are also unaware (could never be
made aware) of *all* the marketing activity we are doing worldwide and
only looking at one isolated instance.
But go ahead and shoot those arrows, because we're not standing
anywhere near the target you're shooting at ;)
--
John Kaster http://blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: http://qc.borland.com
Get source: http://cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: http://ec.borland.com |
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John Kaster (Borland)
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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David Erbas-White wrote:
| Quote: | No, marketing is not always ongoing.
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I wasn't talking specifically about C++Buider marketing in this case.
We have a new product, and marketing for it is not a one-shot deal
(which you didn't comment on).
| Quote: | and 'management'). More successful companies aren't simply targeted
on quarter-by-quarter activities, they actually have longer term
plans.
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We have both. Product launch marketing plans are tied to a quarter.
| Quote: | The often have 'staggered' activities to make the
quarter-by-quarter goals, but the whole 'quarter' obsession is
relatively recent.
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And we're not obsessed on quarters. We have product lifecycle plans,
too.
| Quote: | I'm also (still) somewhat shocked that Borland's response to a
customer concern about there actions is 'defensive' rather than
'concerned'. I've indicated several things that I think would help
me, as a customer, be less concerned about how Borland will continue
to support a product I rely on.
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In the message I was replying to? All I saw was jabs.
| Quote: | Instead, I'm getting MORE of what I
complained about in the last note -- more "it's not our fault" and
"we're doing our best" and "you're not being fair".
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I never said it wasn't our fault, and I didn't say you're not being
fair (at least, not in your initial "humble suggestion" post).
If you reread my reply to your previous post, I didn't say ANYTHING
along the lines of what you're quoting here, although of course we are
doing our best when there is no currently product marketing manager for
BDS and that role is being covered by people who have several other
full-time jobs.
I also explained the circumstances behind the timing: the marketing was
targetted to this quarter, and that our PR dept, which has to approve
and schedule the press release, was distracted by other things that
came up this quarter that were deemed more critical. You can debate
that the PR they covered was not more critical, but that's not what you
were attempting to say, AFAICT.
I didn't say "you're not being fair" and I didn't see any suggestions
beyond the complaint about the delayed press release for BCB, which of
course is so obvious that I didn't recognize "get it out earlier" as a
customer suggestion for how we could improve our process.
There are other circumstances involved as well that you would probably
just perceive as further whining, so I'll just say that I am looking
forward to working for "DevCo" where the complete focus will be on
supporting the developer tools products.
| Quote: | Obviously, this is a problem with ME, rather than YOU, though --
because, as I said, this is the exact response I get from my teenage
kids... <G
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Try rereading your question as the recipient, and see how you would
tend to respond.
| Quote: | If only you knew my actual background as an archer, you wouldn't be
so complacent... <G
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Heh.
--
John Kaster http://blogs.borland.com/johnk
Features and bugs: http://qc.borland.com
Get source: http://cc.borland.com
If it's not here, it's not happening: http://ec.borland.com |
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James Gibbons
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
| Quote: |
But go ahead and shoot those arrows, because we're not standing
anywhere near the target you're shooting at ;)
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And while you're at it, let your VP of marketing make a fool out of
himself in InfoWorld:
IW: What has been the reception to your SDO strategy, and what
percentage of your revenues is coming from that?
Frieberg: Our SDO strategy maps to our ALM tool products, and I don't
know the specific revenue percentage.
VP of Marketing and he doesn't even know the numbers!
I sure hope that the IDE sale works out well for us users, but given
that the stock is still down 10% after the announcement I hope the buyer
gets it for a discount. It would be fun too if a few shareholders would
sue some of the idiots that thought this up.
James Gibbons |
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David Erbas-White
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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John Kaster (Borland) wrote:
John,
At this point, it become both tiresome and a distraction from other
problems (for reasons which you personally are aware of), so I'll finish
my part with a couple of thoughts...
By your own admission, my initial post was both civil, and contained no
jabs. In fact, my first statement was about what an excellent post you
had pointed us to.
You followed up (which, by the way, I didn't expect nor feel was
particularly necessary) with a whole bunch of rationalizations about why
it wasn't done.
Using your own statement back at you, please go back and read YOUR
statements as they would be interpreted by a CUSTOMER of the company,
then you can go back to interpreting MY statements that were put in
response.
I would add that the fact that there is no product marketing manager for
BDS is so far away from being a problem for the customer (as compared to
being a problem for Borland itself), that I'm really unsure as to why it
was brought up.
Yes, if I was sitting around a table having a drink with you, I would
commiserate with you. Even (perhaps especially) at a BorCon or users
group meeting, with us still in the vendor/client relationship. But
here, on the newsgroup, where you are speaking on behalf of your role in
Developer Relations??? Sorry, but that's something that the employees
and management of Borland (and I guess the shareholders as well <G>)
have to deal with -- to me, as a CUSTOMER, it's just one more excuse.
Again, I wouldn't really have expected a response to my initial post,
and if there WAS one, I would have expected something like this
(reproducing my original post and then pretending to be you...):
===============
| Quote: | Excellent article, and makes me want to install BDS 2006 right away (though I won't, because I need to finish a current support project before getting diverted -- I have the product, just haven't installed it yet).
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Thanks! I think you'll like BDS, once you get it up and running!
| Quote: |
Might I humbly suggest that this is the kind of article that should have been posted the day the product was announced as RTM, rather than four months later???
|
Yes, we kind of blew that one, but we're trying to catch up with things.
Hopefully we'll do better in the future -- I realize you may have
heard that before, but it's sometimes two steps forward, one step back.
===============
I realize even as I write this that I'm rehashing words/feelings have
stated many times in the past, which is probably why I'm getting that
soft, squishy sound of my head hitting a wall.
As I said, feel free to comment (or not), but I've said my piece (and am
happy with what I've said...).
David Erbas-White |
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Bruce Larrabee
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: What's New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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Hey guys---
ever hear the expression, 'keep the ice in the glasses and the knives on the table'??
;)
Later,
Bruce Larrabee |
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Mike Margerum
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: What’s New in C++Bulder 2006 - by Jason Vokes |
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| Does the pro sku come with dbExpress drivers for SQL server? |
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